MAP essay - Defence against knives

Discussion in 'General Martial Arts Discussion' started by Ghost Frog, Jan 14, 2004.

  1. Ghost Frog

    Ghost Frog New Member

    I was told as a beginner:

    If someone pulls a knife on you, they either know how to use it or they don't.
    If they do know how to use it, then they're really dangerous.
    If they don't know how to use it, then they're really dangerous.


    Please discuss in no more than 300 words. Your essay should not include the topic of guns, swords or nunchaku.


    ;)
     
  2. shotokanwarrior

    shotokanwarrior I am the One

    i'll try and do that sometime
     
  3. Cyph

    Cyph Banned Banned

    I think anyone with a knife is really dangerous, regardless of whether they know how to use it or not.
     
  4. neryo_tkd

    neryo_tkd Valued Member

    that's exactly what Ghost Frog posted :)
     
  5. Noob

    Noob Valued Member

    Firstly never been in a knifefight, and I really, really, really don't want to be in a knifefight (except if training). So what would I do if someone pulled a knife on me for no reason, run, run, run, run, run.

    If they *had* a reason, well then they could have my wallet or any other item of property they wanted. I would throw it at them and run, run, run, run, run. Anything in my wallet can be cancelled, or replaced I wouldn't want things in me to need replacing which can easily happen if someone sticks a sharp pointy thing into you.

    Now someones going to say - what if you can't run Noob. Or what if the situation is x or y or z. Then it's simple, I would hope to find a way to start running. Thats my planned defence on dealing with knives and the people carrying them.

    As for people who know how to use a knife versus those who don't, most people have a good idea of how to use a knife in my opinion, point blade towards target and stab. Nothing too complicated and again in my opinion you can guaruntee that someone *with* a knife has practiced that technique before, they may even of done it before. They may not be able to do anything too fancy but I'd bet they know how to stab and possibly slash - either way too dangerous for me to want to get any closer and I would be aiming to do the opposite, get as far away from them as possible.

    The thing with knives is everyone has them, from Kitchen Knives to the fancy dan combat magazine tactical rambo style knives. Each one is just as dangerous too. So now you know I'm a coward, but I'd rather be a coward all my life than a fool for a few seconds.

    Thats my thoughts on Knives feel free to disagree.
     
  6. Matt_Bernius

    Matt_Bernius a student and a teacher

    Here goes with the following disclaimers:
    1. if you can avoid a knife fight do so.
    2. if you are in a knife fight expect to get cut.
    3. Stabs are more dangerous than slashes.
    4. No disrespect is meant to any art by my comments.
    5. I'm going to blow through that 300 word limit!

    If someone shows you a knife before a fight begins it usually means one of two things: they don't know how to use a knife or they do know how to use it and want to scare you. Why? Well let's take the second scenario first: a trained knife fighter will only show the knife when he sticks it in you (or slashes you). People who use weapons typically assume that their prey is armed as well. Thus if they show a knife it gives you time to draw yours. What most people don't understand about the balisong (butterfly knife for example) is that the real power of it is it can be deployed, slash/stab, and closed in a single stroke. No fancy opens, nothing. Out, slash, stab, back and put away in a matter of seconds (faster than most tactical folders). So why would a trained knife fighter show a knife? Typically it’s to discourage a fight (for example in a mugging situation). We'll get back to that trained person in a sec.

    As far as the untrained person, in almost every scenario (armed or not), an untrained person is very dangerous for the average Traditional Martial Artist to deal with. Why? Hate to say it, but it all gets back to training. The majority of time is often spent training against your own art. Just a function of how schools work. The problem with that is we often get used to practicing self-defense against people who use "formal techniques." So, as others have pointed out, we get into a mindset where we expect an attack to conform to specific parameters. Untrained people operate outside of those parameters. So they violate our neat, well-defined mental model. And that gives people problems. Defending on the way a school trains self defense against weapon attacks, this issue is exacerbated. An untrained person's attack will often violate the rules of common sense. And that can cause problems and lead to one feeling like a pincushion.

    The ultimate issue in this situation comes back to training and understanding weapons. Not only do you need to train against the non-conforming attack of an uninitiated attacker, you also have to train against the informed response of someone who knows what they are doing. I shudder to think how many schools teach the overhead "X"/Cross Hand block as a viable defense against a knife. While that may stop an uninitiated attacker, it's woefully inadequate for dealing with someone with a marginal amount of training in a blade-based system (or someone who has two knifes).

    Bottom line: in order to deal with both type of attackers you need to understand the weapon and how to attack with it. And that requires one to seriously evaluate what they are learning and the reality of their self-defense training.

    There you go, like I said, I blew through the limit. Hope you didn't mind.

    - Matt
     
  7. Ghost Frog

    Ghost Frog New Member

    Examiner's Report
    Excellent work all round. Some real depth of thought here from all candidates. Noob and Matt go to the top of the class.

    Noob - Excellent tactical analysis. Your 'running' theory has a superb logic to it. Good points about knife ownership.

    Matt - Your points on the pyschology of using knives in a confrontiation are very astute. You've achieved some good depth in your assessment of mental models in martial arts classes.

    Overall, both essays are of a very high standard.

    10/10

    </takes off schoolmarm glasses>

    :)
     
    Last edited: Jan 15, 2004
  8. Matt_Bernius

    Matt_Bernius a student and a teacher

    Well I'd love to take the credit, but it all goes to my Kali Instructor and my Kung fu instructor for drilling these concepts into my noggin'.

    - Matt
     
  9. Furikuchan

    Furikuchan New Member

    Gotta love downtown Durham and Raleigh, NC. It gives you plenty of opportunity to deal with knife defenses.
    If you are defending against a knife, you have to be prepared to get cut. Let me emphasize this: You Are Going To Get Cut. With that mentality, whether you escape unscathed or you get cut, you are not surprised if you get cut. Surprise is dangerous. The surprise realization of "ow he hit me" can slow down your attack, and make you pause enough that you get killed. Worry about your wounds after the danger is gone.
    However, the best explanation of a knife fight I have ever heard was from the wise Professor Ernie Cates.
    "The winner of a knife fight is the guy who dies the next day."
     
  10. ap Oweyn

    ap Oweyn Ret. Supporter

    I have a scar on my index finger from a run in with a knife. I have nerve damage, so that the area around the scar is deadened. And the scar itself hurts if I try and turn a key with that hand, for example.

    I'd love to claim that I sustained that injury doing battle with some nefarious ne'er do well on the mean streets. But in truth I was doing battle with a piece of stale french bread. And I had the knife.

    Now if I can do that sort of damage to myself by accident, it's pretty obvious that anybody actually trying to hurt me with a knife (skilled or otherwise) stands a very good chance of doing so. Why? Because unlike punching or using a stick, all that's really required is contact. Not torque. Not placement. Not momentum. Just contact.

    So while some targets are better than others, even with a knife, any idiot who can make contact with you can hurt you if he's got a blade. Just slapfight with someone for a few moments and the extrapolate what it would have been like if each contact had resulted in a cut.

    Your teacher showed a lot more common sense than some I've heard. This was second hand, so perhaps they misquoted him, but some people I knew quoted their shotokan instructor as having said the following: You only need to worry about a knife if the guy's holding it icepick style. If he's holding it the other way, he doesn't know what he's doing.

    I doubt he said that, literally. I knew the guy. He wasn't dumb. I suspect the point he was making is that a lot of knifefighters use an inverted grip, so it's a sign that the guy has held a knife before and isn't just wielding the first thing he could get his hands on.

    But rather than explain all that, I just grabbed the nearest wooden knife (in a 'normal' grip) and went after the nearest student. He got the point, if you'll excuse the pun.

    A guy who knows what he's doing with a knife is clearly more dangerous than a guy who doesn't. But even the guy who doesn't is a very serious threat.


    Stuart B.
     
  11. El Tejon

    El Tejon MAP'scrazyuncle

    I recommend the use of Nike fu.:D

    My response is "front sight", and then "press" but that is outside the exam criteria.;)
     
  12. Poop-Loops

    Poop-Loops Banned Banned

    If he knows how to use it, it will be your skill vs his. If he doesn't, your skill won't matter as much, since he'll be slashing randomly, and you'll have to watch out for a lucky shot to the face.

    PL
     
  13. Andy Murray

    Andy Murray Sadly passed away. Rest In Peace.

    Run Run Run Run Run Run Run Run Run Run Run Run Run Run Run Run Run Run Run Run Run Run Run Run Run Run Run Run Run Run Run Run Run Run Run Run Run Run Run Run Run Run Run Run Run Run Run Run Run Run Run Run Run Run Run Run Run Run Run Run Run Run Run Run Run Run Run Run Run Run Run Run Run Run Run Run Run Run Run Run Run Run Run Run Run Run Run Run Run Run Run Run Run Run Run Run Run Run Run Run Run Run Run Run Run Run Run Run Run Run Run Run Run Run Run Run Run Run Run Run Run Run Run Run Run Run Run Run Run Run Run Run Run Run Run Run Run Run Run Run Run Run Run Run Run Run Run Run Run Run Run Run Run Run Run Run Run Run Run Run Run Run Run Run Run Run Run Run Run Run Run Run Run Run Run Run Run Run Run Run Run Run Run Run Run Run Run Run Run Run Run Run Run Run Run Run Run Run Run Run Run Run Run Run Run Run Run Run Run Run Run Run Run Run Run Run Run Run Run Run Run Run Run Run Run Run Run Run Run Run Run Run Run Run Run Run Run Run Run Run Run Run Run Run Run Run Run Run Run Run Run Run Run Run Run Run Run Run Run Run Run Run Run Run Run Run Run Run Run Run Run Run Run Run Run Run Run Run

    300 words! :D
     
  14. Poop-Loops

    Poop-Loops Banned Banned

    I'd get tired after 2 of those. :(

    PL
     
  15. Ghost Frog

    Ghost Frog New Member

    Matt - You're allowed to quote other people. It is an exam, after all, and you explained it really well.

    Great responses again, everyone!! I love this forum!!

    I love the Run essay and the Nike Fu. Around the same time as being told the quote above and being shown some kicks, one of my fellow students asked,
    "What if somebody is trying to mug you and you're too far away to kick them".
    Hee Hee!
     
  16. ap Oweyn

    ap Oweyn Ret. Supporter

    If you're serious, that's a very dangerous take on the issue. Why would you only have to worry about a 'lucky shot' to the face? Wouldn't a slash to the wrist be bad? Or the neck? Or a stab in the gut? Any of those would be game enders. Never mind the accumulated damage from slashes to nonvital areas.

    Easy test is to give a friend (a nonskilled friend if you like) a magic marker. Have him come after you in earnest. See what you look like afterward. And then translate each pen mark into a laceration.

    Your skill will matter. A great deal.
     
  17. Matt_Bernius

    Matt_Bernius a student and a teacher

    With the typically tactical folder or even average kitchen knife the answer to
    is no. Frankly none of those are game enders. That's one of the many falicies that come out of not understanding a knife. In order for any slash to be a game ender there needs to be significant penetration. The average knife doesn't have enough weight to penetrate on a slash. Peroid. And remeber that in most cases that slash needs to go through clothing as well.

    Case and point, there were recently two slashings in my neighborhood (and no I don't live in a bad section of town). In the second one a young woman was grabbed and slashed three times across her throat and chin. She managed to get out of the attackers grip and get her hands up receiving "defensive wounds" to her hands and arms. She called for help and the attacker fled. All and all she did end up with 21 stitches but was never "out of the game." (Please note I'm not making light of her situation, it was a terrible thing and we are meeting as a community to discuss what we can do to help make our area safer).

    Movies have built up a lot of preconcived notions of things that are "game enders": getting shot, getting slashed, heck even a kick to the balls. You'd be suprised how in many cases, none of these will put a person down the way you expect.

    A compitent knife fighter will slash to the face as there's a lot less penetration needed to cause problems there. Or they will slash to set up the stab. Slashes scare (and bleed a lot), stabs bleed a lot less and kill. That's part of the reason that suggested that someone holding a knife in icepick grip is more dangerous. The reason is that is hand grip geared for stabbing.

    - Matt
     
  18. ap Oweyn

    ap Oweyn Ret. Supporter

    Well, regardless of whether a slash on the wrist literally ends the fight, it's not something to brush off nonchalantly. And someone coming after you with a knife is unlikely to stop after one or two slashes. So any cut is going to open the door for the next one. And is, in my opinion, not to be taken lightly.

    Take the woman in your example. While she wasn't killed, the repercussions of that attack will remain with her for the rest of her life. Again, not to be taken lightly (as you mentioned).

    I've been kicked in the jumblies enough times during the course of my training (sans cup in some cases) to know that this isn't a fight ender.

    I don't see that the lupa (icepick) grip is any more geared for stabbing than the langit (normal) grip is. On the contrary, the inverted grip makes it possible to stab downward to shoulders and chest. But for the most part, a normal grip affords more targets for thrusting. And more range.

    But, obviously, both grips can slash and both can thrust. It's a blade, after all, regardless of which way it's pointing.


    Stuart B.
     
  19. Protein

    Protein New Member

    Congratulation, this is a very useful thread. Everyone shared valuable info, but I still have a question. How would you defend against a punch dagger or knuckle knife? Cause everyone who can use his fists, can use those.
     
  20. Matt_Bernius

    Matt_Bernius a student and a teacher

    Perhaps. Perhaps not. I'm not writing this to be agumentative. The fact is a slash across the wrists isn't most likely going to kill you. In fact, if you were planning to slit one's wrists the way to do it is along the vein, not across it :

    "Wrist slashing by itself is not a very effective means of committing suicide and few people actually die of it. This is especially true if the victim cuts laterally across the wrist. He or she may do substantial damage to the important tendons which control the fingers. He or she may even cut an important artery or vein but the blood vessels will immediately draw back into the muscles surrounding them, effectively sealing off any major leakage of blood.

    It is possible for a person to cut longitudinally along the wrist, laying open several important blood vessels along their length. This has been an effective means of causing enough blood loss to cause death. Even so it is not a sure method of killing oneself."
    (source Moyle Inofrmation Services for Law Enforcement see http://dmmoyle.com/simeans.htm)

    Secondly, The other factor in this is a body wide adrenaline dump. While this is going the body's pain threshold often goes off the map. So the slash (provided it hasn't severed tendons) may not even be noticed. For more on this (and knife physchology in general see this article by Bill McGrath:
    http://www.cfwenterprises.com/artic...9XDCHP7C88GNWUHTC4C392SHD92FC&content_id=3077

    However you're totally right, slashes come in bunches. And so one needs to be prepared for that.
    Agreed! But at the same time she at least has the rest of her life.
    The Icepick grip allows far more penetration power on stabs (regardless if they're traveling down or up). It also provides a more reenforced structure for stabbing. Additionally it allows you to hold the knife in a fighting guard. Unfortunately it doesn't really have any slashing penetration with smaller knives. And your right it does somewhat limit ones range (but not by that much).
    True, but the way that it is being held, in conjunction with the size of the knife, can let one know alot about what it's capacities are. Of course before any of that can help, you need to see the knife and have time to process what you see. That is an optimal situation and as we can all agree, you don't usually get lucky enough in self defense situations to get an "optimal version."

    - Matt
     

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