Effectiveness of budo taijutsu

Discussion in 'Ninjutsu' started by Devil Hanzo, Aug 26, 2009.

  1. Devil Hanzo

    Devil Hanzo Doesn't tap to heel-hooks

    Just wanted to clear something up.

    Yes, I think that budo taijutsu is an effective means of self-defense in a real encounter. To back up this claim, I'll explain why.

    Sport combat arts rarely teach in an attacker/defender scenario. In sparring, both students are attacking and defending as necessary. Sparring looks NOTHING like a real fight. Not even close. However, it gives you the option to think tactically, learn how to set up your attacks better, get used to being hit and thrown around, plus it's a lot of fun.

    In a real altercation, there's none of this touch-and-go sparring nonsense. No circling to the lead hand, throwing a punch combo then backing out, going back in, backing out, offense-defense-offense-defense, etc. The attacker has already planned his attack against you, and he can execute his opener at any possible moment of his choosing. No touching gloves before hand, no knowledge that you're about to be assaulted, no way of knowing if the attacker is armed.

    Budo taijutsu teaches you zanshin. It teaches you to be aware of anything and everything, and gives you effective means of handling most situations. The two man kata and the way they're trained is a very useful tool to condition someone to a real life response. Using appropriate distance, timing, footwork, and controlling the space between you and the attacker, is all key to surviving an altercation.

    I fully believe that when trained properly, with high intensity conditioning, this art will prepare you for reality. The problem people come to when bickering over these forums in the whole TMA vs MMA debate is they compare "dueling" to "surviving". For the most part, yes, an MMA fighter will destroy a BBT practitioner in a spar, because that's what they're trained to do. Just as a basketball player would lose to a soccer player in a soccer match.

    Don't get me wrong. I think MMA is extremely effective in reality altercations as well, when coupled with training in a weapons art like kali or krav. However, from my experience training in both, the advantage goes to the BBT guys in a real fight for one solid reason: mentality.

    BBT is about surviving, MMA is about fighting.

    "It's better to avoid than to run. It's better to run than to deescalate. It's better to deescalate than to fight. It's better to fight than to die."

    BBT is about what's really important in training, and that's not getting killed.

    I just wanted to add, that while I feel the methods available in this art are effective, I feel the way they are taught in the Bujinkan is limiting their effectiveness. It's too sloppy and all over the place, there's too many holes and not nearly enough focus on the basic fundamental movements. Freedom and fun in training is important, but too much freedom is dangerous. Notice how I've never said anything negative about the Jinenkan or the Genbukan; I have no question in my mind about the effectiveness of JNK or GBK teachers. I've trained with many, and they were all phenomenal in every movement they did. Just food for thought.
     
    Last edited: Aug 26, 2009
  2. 2E0WHN

    2E0WHN Valued Member

    Or save wear on your fingers and just say that instead.
     
  3. Kuma

    Kuma Lurking about

    Any and all martial arts can be effective. It's not the style that dictates its effectiveness or not, it's the training methodologies you use. If you train for actual combat, you will be prepared for actual combat. If you train to win point sparring competitions, you'll win point sparring competitions. It's when by training one you think you're covering it all is when your views on actual ability get distorted.
     
  4. Spinmaster

    Spinmaster Valued Member

    Sorry, logic is flawed here. "We can't win sparring, but we can win real life fights." I recall someone summarizing this nicely, saying it basically amounts to "MMA fighters don't learn 'practical self defense', so they don't stand a chance against a thug. I have practical self defense, so I will beat said thug. Yet for some reason, those MMA guys take me apart..." ;)
     
  5. Devil Hanzo

    Devil Hanzo Doesn't tap to heel-hooks

    Yes, those MMA guys take you apart in sparring, because they train for a 1v1 unarmed combat scenario. Taijutsu does not prepare a person to be a competitive fighter. To use my analogy above, you're training for basketball and expecting the soccer player to beat you in a 1v1 basketball game.

    MMA wins sport fighting competitions.

    Sport fighting competitions have no remote resemblance to a real fight.

    MMA fighters are prepared for a back and forth exchange of unarmed attacks. Especially considering a huge amount of the student foundation in MMA is relatively new and have started training for the purpose of competition, most of them have never experienced weapons training.

    If a person on the street has chosen you as a victim, they're not afraid of you. If you're a big jacked tattood guy with a Tapout hoodie on and a cauliflower ear, and he's selected you as his victim, chances are he's carrying a weapon; something MMA has absolutely no reason to prepare you for.

    You're comparing apples to oranges, sparring to reality. They don't come close. Don't get me wrong, I understand your point, it's just..well...incorrect.

    [For the record, I said above that I think MMA is an effective means of self-defense, as long as it's coupled with a weapon art. As far as winning a 1v1 fight goes, I wouldn't choose anything but MMA. We're not discussing winning fights, we're talking about reality. Huge difference.]
     
    Last edited: Aug 26, 2009
  6. Kuma

    Kuma Lurking about

    Respectfully going to disagree here. I'm a cop, I get in my fair share of scraps. The majority of my background is in plain old boxing, Kyokushin karate, and the basic clap-trap they teach you in the academy and military basic training. So far (knock on wood) I've won every altercation, haven't gotten seriously hurt, and managed to obtain the arrest using the least amount of force possible. If it wasn't for the heavy emphasis on sparring in both my chosen arts I don't think I would have been as calm in my fights and seen the opportunity where I could end the fight right then and there. I've even managed to use techniques I had rarely kept my training up on to that point (perfect example being the straight arm bar takedown, one which I now know better and train more often) successfully to which I also credit my sparring in both of my arts, which can be considered "sport arts."

    No fight can be completely "no holds barred" but just because of that fact doesn't mean that all sparring and "sport fighting" is worthless. Am I advocating that we all drop whatever we're doing and hop on the current MMA bandwagon? Of course not. However, I will say that in my opinion without sparring against an alive and moving opponent (who is also doing his best to hurt you) you will never reach your potential as a martial artist.
     
  7. Kagete

    Kagete Banned Banned

    How about this - I would put my vote on the MMA guy for the exact same reason.
     
  8. Devil Hanzo

    Devil Hanzo Doesn't tap to heel-hooks

    No disagreement necessary. I never argued against sparring. Sparring is my absolute favorite aspect of martial arts training. I also believe that without regular sparring, a person is hindering their progression as a martial artist.

    However, MMA never progresses past sparring, except into competition which is just sparring with more intensity and a desire to injure your opponent. The issue is MMA fighters claiming their training alone is the be-all-end-all of reality self defense, when nothing about their training resembles reality. Unless of course you think reality is two guys, unarmed, in a circle of cheering onlookers, where people will break it up if things get too violent. You're a cop, so I highly doubt that's the case.

    I quit taijutsu to do MMA, which I've been doing for awhile now. Our muay thai coach moved to thailand, so now the school is primarily BJJ. To compensate for my lack of striking training and sparring at the moment, I've been doing JKD. The main reason for this was the stick, gun and knife training the JKD instructor is offering, with his background in kali.

    Like I said, I think the methods behind MMA training are effective in preparing the practitioner for a 1v1 unarmed fight. Reality is RARELY a 1v1 unarmed fight. The discussion isn't about the ineffectiveness of MMA, it's about the effectiveness of budo taijutsu, despite the disparaging claims of outsiders.
     
  9. Kuma

    Kuma Lurking about

    Like I said in another post, any and all arts can be used effectively. It's the way in how you train them.

    Take for example, this link I found through a casual search (hope we can post these!):
    http://www.taijutsu.com/content/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=20&Itemid=105

    Kata, alive drills, randori, and free response drills all with Bujinkan Ninjitsu. Not a bad deal. This Shihan David Dow sounds like just the kind of guy I'd want to train with.
     
  10. Devil Hanzo

    Devil Hanzo Doesn't tap to heel-hooks

    How so?

    If one trains budo taijutsu with the same intensity that one trains in MMA, the only difference lies in the fact that the MMA fighter has no training outside 1v1 unarmed combat, where the taijutsu fighter does.

    This hypothetically assuming both fighters are of equal level of fitness.
     
  11. Devil Hanzo

    Devil Hanzo Doesn't tap to heel-hooks

    I completely agree. I think the lack of widely accepted conditioning, strength training, and sparring in the Bujinkan is one of it's largest flaws [and possibly one of it's largest selling points to some of the out of shape members], but I'm not trying to discuss where the art lacks; I want to talk about where it excels.
     
  12. Slindsay

    Slindsay All violence is necessary

    1) The MMA fighter has access to tuition from people who have spent years refining their techniques against people who want to hurt them having learned their techniques from people who ALSO spent years refining their techniques against someone intent on hurting them having learned their techniques...

    Point being there is more to fighting than training methodology and, whilst that is certainly a key component, you can't just add aliveness to, what 300 year old techniques that are preserved in their most stylised form.

    2) He has access to and the expectation of at some point using competitive venues to test himself against people other people who really, really want to hurt him.

    3) He has an attitude of winning, 100% commitment to the fight, he isn't engaging in the fight looking to escape he's looking to smash the other guys face in and THEN allow himself to be distracted by other options, he's going to take care of the guy in front of him as quickly as possible. There's plenty of scientific studies that show the affect of more than one option on peoples reaction speeds, worrying about the possibility of other attackers out there is counter-productive. If people are going to jump you en mass then why would you think you're going o have any sort of chance of fighting, their going to hit you from behind and kick the crap out of you while you're down.

    4) On the awareness and weapons front, the MMA fighter knows he isn't being taught this so he has the option of looking for it elsewhere, probably from people a damn sight more qualified to teach it than you're average Bujinkan Budo Taijitsu instructor

    5) he has an expectation on him to learn a VERY wide range of techniques, but to only really refine a few for the purpose of fighting

    6) He doesn't have these techniques in his repertoire...

    [ame="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=N0jOMc9R4Ak"]YouTube - what is bujinkan budo taijutsu[/ame]

    And that's a good thing
     
  13. Kagete

    Kagete Banned Banned

    More importantly, this is hypothetically assuming that both fighters are equally tough mentally.
     
  14. Devil Hanzo

    Devil Hanzo Doesn't tap to heel-hooks

    Touché.
     
  15. Dead_pool

    Dead_pool Spes mea in nihil Deus MAP 2017 Moi Award

    I just thought id pick one point and offer my view:

    Circling / tai sabaki is the one of the cornerstones to Tai-jutsu, and entering from outside the lead hand is an extremely effective tactic. And the fact that a MMArtist will do so many times in randori means that they have trained this many times, and therefore be very good at doing it.

    Throwing offence until you cant anymore and have to use defence isn’t exactly a ineffective tactic either.

    Circumstances do determine tactics, but trying to talk down one training regime under another which has a poorly defined training regime seems a poor choice of argument.
     
  16. Devil Hanzo

    Devil Hanzo Doesn't tap to heel-hooks

    Back to my analogy, you could be the best soccer player in the known universe, that's still not going to prepare you for playing basketball. The main point is that sport fighting and real fighting have no similarities. We're not talking about ego stroking 1v1 face to face duels; we're talking about surviving a violent assault from someone who may be potentially armed. Do you think 1v1 a pro MMA fighter would stand a chance against a kali fighter with a knife?

    No, they don't really want to hurt him, or they would have bashed him in the back of the head with a brick while he was taking a leak, stabbed him a few times, then ducked out the back door. Again, I think you're mistaking fighting for entertainment and fighting for survival.

    This is assuming the attacker in question is actually "in front of him". If I were to assault someone, why would I verbally pick the fight before hand? Why would I give them the chance to face me? Why would I want us to be on even grounds? Once again, you're trying to act like a real fight is the same as a fight in UFC. "Bashing someone's face in" is a good way to get arrested, escape is a far more intelligent option. Of course, MMA gyms don't have a need to teach you the multitude of assault laws for your state, because you're trained to fight in rings where that type of physical retaliation is allowed, expected and encouraged.

    But he's not taught it. We're not discussing what he has the option to learn, we're discussing what he is not taught. I'm also not talking about 'the average BBT instructor', I'm talking about the good ones. You're also trying to lump the art under the title of one organization; on no level does the training in the Bujinkan come anywhere close to the level of skill found in the Jinenkan or the Genbukan. This is a broad generalization on my part, but I have extensive experience with all three. Just trust me on this one.

    Same, to an extent. Lets speak on behalf of budo taijutsu and not the Bujinkan in and of itself. The techniques all taught share similar movements, methods, applications and thought processes. The student is taught a large amount of techniques, but they're all based on the same principles. The end result is a core set of refined basic movements designed for combat; the techniques themselves are more for preservation of the art than actually thinking they're all applicable in a fight. The importance lies in why, when and how to apply the techniques than actually applying them.
     
    Last edited: Aug 26, 2009
  17. Dead_pool

    Dead_pool Spes mea in nihil Deus MAP 2017 Moi Award

    Because real fights dont involve striking, gripping, chocking, throwing and locking?

    [ame="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Rhbi5wYXvQ4"]YouTube - TBS MCMAP[/ame]



    Does this look familiar?


    [ame="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ytxBo89B6l8"]YouTube - Gracie Insider: Standing Mata Leao[/ame]
     
  18. Devil Hanzo

    Devil Hanzo Doesn't tap to heel-hooks

    Of course they do, if they have to. I'm sure those soldiers in that video would much prefer to use their rifles on an enemy than engage in hand to hand combat. Why? Because the point of war is to survive, not to show who's tougher. Shoot, bang, dead enemy, move on to the next guy.

    Just like the attacker in a real fight is going to think the exact same way and opt to use a weapon against you instead of engaging in an equal hand to hand fight, which is all MMA prepares you for. An equal hand to hand fight, that you're prepared for, you've watched tape on your opponent, you know his skills, you know the place, you know the time, you know the date, your coach will be there, your friends and training partners will be there. If you think the stress associated with that type of fighting is in any way related to the stress of a random, violent, unexpected and unplanned attack, then I'm truly worried about your safety.
     
  19. cx4

    cx4 Valued Member

    If your training is good and you are training enough, you should be able to hold your own. There's no free pass on BJK vs MMA, though I wouldn't expect nonprofessionals to be on the par with professionals in the ring. I also wouldn't expect MMA practicianers to be prepared for the expertise with concealed weapons I've seen in many BJK dojos.
     
  20. Devil Hanzo

    Devil Hanzo Doesn't tap to heel-hooks

    This is fun.

    Again, reality is compared to sport. Your attacker will have no discernible lead hand. You will not have adequate positioning allowing you the options of sparring, ala "circling to the lead hand". There will be no opportunity for you to "square off against your attacker, maintain a proper fighting stance and start bobbing and weaving".
     

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