Koku - A highly academic discussion on the "correct" way of executing the kata

Dear fellow X-kans,

I started this thread regarding the first kata from the Jo Ryuaku no Maki of Gyokko Ryu in order to see if we can, with our combined knowledge and wisdom, come to a conclusion on the basic way of executing it. Which are the different steps, why are they executed, what reactions are we looking for from the Uke, what are the most common mistakes we (or others) make, why are so many version floating around, is there really one way of doing it, et cetera, et cetera ("and so on" for those not so academic joining the discussion).

Im looking for serious input from other X-kans or Ex-X-kans who have actually done the kata (not just seen it on a video tape or on you tube). Im not interested in discussing how it would fare in a sporting or modern environment, henka or any other aspect of it but the traditional way.

One would think the first kata from one of the most important schools within the Bujinkan, the Jinenkan´and the Genbukan should be pretty easy to agree on. Lets see where we end up.

Just to get a good start I´ll add "my" version as far as I´ve come to understand it:

Uke comes with Jodan Tsuki. Tori from Ichimonji no kamae does Uke nagashi and counters with right Kiten Ken to lower Hoshi (a rising strike). Uke comes with Zenpo Keri. Tori steps back with the right leg in a circular motion and does a left leg Keri Age to the calf. Finishing of with a left ****o Ken to Butsumetsu and Zanshin afterwards. (I did not include the bowing in from kongo gassho no kamae but we do it too from time to time).


Looking forward to your input ! (I´ll include some of my thoughs on why you do the different moves later on)

Skuggvarg

 

Excellent thread!

Aside from the version you described, I have also been shown to do yoko aruki sabaki away from Uke's kick before you do the Keri Age.

 

With all due respect, I think that this is one topic which doesn't have a place on internet discussion boards. If you have a teacher who can teach you the technique, then you should know the technique and if you have any further questions about it, then they should be addressed to your teacher.

If, on the other hand, you don't have a teacher who can teach you the correct way to perform this technique, then you probably have no place discussing the technique with strangers across the web.

 

just this weekend we had a seminar that went through the first level of the gyokko ryu school,

Koku (empty sky)

Both uke and tori start in Ichimonji no kamae. Uke attacks with migi jodan tsuki shikan ken to ganmen (face). Tori blocks jodan uke to the inside of Uke's arm with ken kudaki and follows with omote shuto with the right hand to Uke's hoshi (elbow). Uke attacks with migi sokugyaku to Tori's groin/stomach. Tori steps to the left and applies keri kaeshi to the side of uke's knee or thigh and follows with boshi ken to butsumetsu or the kidneys.

note: When Uke kicks, tori can either step to the left and keri kaeshi or he can step to the left with yoko aruki and kick with either left or right foot. Tori can also use shikan ken to the back of butsumetsu, this depends on where his body is.

Henka

uke attacks as before, do the ken kudaki. As uke kicks, shift to the outside of the kick(left leg leading pulling the right leg right next to it).Strike to his sai (outside) with the left knee, extend the left leg and kick away at his suporting leg at the knee.


from what we were shown if the uke has longer legs than tori, tori should turn their body more to the left when stepping yoko aruki, this gives tori the space to deliver the kick at the right distance.

 

This is the way I have heard is the "real version"(tm), although have never seen it done this way until a few years ago. With the upward ken kudaki.

In 2001 there was the tenchiinyonokamae version with the downward ken kudaki, and the kick with the right leg to ukes calf.

And before that I had seen it as a horizontal ken kudaki strike.

Who knows.

 

I humbly disagree with you. What you say is true, but it doesn't apply to this situation, because there is no logical reason why it should not be discussed on a forum like this. Everyone, Bujinkan or not, can get access to not only descriptions but also videos of Kokuu. It is not a secret technique. Discussing it here brings no harm whatsoever.

 

there was allso a verssion with ending the kata with a two fist strike after the keri kaeshi
that was one way it was thought by doron navon students but ninjitsu then was differnt
and went through many phases

 

I'm not saying that the technique is in any way a secret, what I'm saying is that you should have trust in your teacher that they are teaching you the correct way in which to perform the technique.

If you trust your teacher then why on Earth would you discuss the correct way to do the technique on the internet? If you don't trust your teacher enough to have faith in what they are teaching and you feel that you want to discuss things like this on the net, then it's probably time to find a new teacher.

 

koku makes sense to me when uke and tori begin in mirror stances (ex: uke's right arm is forward, tori's left arm is forward) and tori ends up on uke's outside on the initial movement.

 

I prefer the keri kaeshi at the end. I believe it sets up at a closer range, which is where I prefer to be. Even though the kata generally ends with a boshiken, I can finish the kata off with sankaku jime, in which the guy just kinda falls into.

 

When even different Shihan (Japanese, that is) show kata differently, why can't we discuss the different ways of doing the kata and see what we come up with?

Again, what's the harm?

 

Let me tell you something - I can assure you that both I and the starter of this thread have gone above and beyond the call of duty to practice the technique in question. We've been practicing it for countless hours, and we're nowhere near perfection yet. So no offense, but I think you know what I'm suggesting you should do with that notion of "trust".

 

This is hilarious !
No one likes to touch the hot topics like sparring or groundfighting or whatever...fine.
Now we cant even talk about kata ?

What the hell should/could be discussed in this forum ?

 

Ha! I knew it was only a matter of time before somebody came out with this stock cliché. I’ll give you a clue. It’s called making conversation on a MA forum, in particular a Ninjutsu forum. Granted any question on here pertaining to Ninjutsu could be greeted with the proverbial “ask your teacher”, but it isn’t, why? Because then there would be no use for this forum.

I’m mystified:

1) Conversations about lineage cause arguments and are taboo. Fact.
2) Conversations questioning training methodologies cause arguments and are taboo. Fact.
3) Conversations pertaining to specific questions about techniques are taboo and cause arguments. Fact.
4) Topics and questions asked by new comers are greeted with distain and the classic “ask you teacher”. Fact.

Therefore I’m at a loss here, what is this forum for? What are valid topics?

BTW Shinsen, I noticed your avatar "Cardiff city", that explains a lot

 

Hm.

I'll disagree - but with a caveat:

I don't think anything can be *resolved* in this conversation - as it isn't any form of transmission. You are certainly correct in that questions should be aimed at your instructor...

However - I have been been known to call Koku the "Shihan Killer" - because of the number of (poor) variations I have seen over the years.

Still to this day - I don't like it. I train in it - as best I can - but I don't *like* it. It still feels disconnected... But I assume it is just my shortcomings...

With all that said - this does bring up a great point: What are the odds that your instructor has *the way* instead of *a way* and hopefully not *a bad way*?

Most of us have the text for Koku somewhere - so everyone is following the rough outline... so does that make it close enough?

Me - I have problems with two different parts both pertaining to rhythm (specifically you need to double strike once and then double step another time...). I don't get how you end up that far in front of someone else who is your equal... but that is my burden to bear at the moment.

Some people are threatened by the idea that their instructor may not have full transmission of Gyokko Ryu. I'm not. I just take what comes... as best I can. For them - a conversation about it is akin to not trusting your instructor... and maybe they are right. I am curious though if the instructor is *sure* his version is right / the best... Most guys I ask (even after they *teach* it will admit they don't like it yet...) have no problem caveat-ing their way of doing it...

Ulitmately - there are probably a couple people on the planet who have a first hand version of it from Takamatsu (if even that many) - and none of them have MAP accounts - so this conversation is conjecture from the "still learning" group.

My thoughts...

-Daniel

PS. If you don't have a teacher who has shown you a version of this technique - please don't crap on this thread... Kthxbai

 

Shinsen posted

If you dont discuss the techniques with others how do you know you teacher is teaching you the correct way?

Garth

 

To paraphase Hatsumi Sensei.............

"You will ask what is wrong and what is right.

I will tell you, there is no wrong and right.

Just do!"

Thats my tenpennyworth...................................

 

lol kagate ... dont get in a huff.

ONE person thinks its inappropriate. Not a big deal

 

I think the connection is important, especially so when a technique requires a prescribed set of attacks (like in Gyokko Ryu, or Kukishinden Ryu kata for exaple.) If uke is attaking with the prescribed punch/ kick even though there may be better options availiable, there is a problem. If the punch prescribed in the kata does come in but you have left a better option, your distance will be wrong.

This is why kata training can be dangerous to your progression. To make the kata 'work' it requires you to attack in a certain way, even though you may be training yourself to take the less viable opening. From the other side, if you leave the wrong opening but receive the attack prescribed and then you continue with the technique in the normal way. You could be doing something that is more appropriate given the situation is differnent to the situation described in the densho.

My instructor and I often say that if we were in Japan and he is asked to demonstrate a technique that lets say I don't hear or dont know the attacks, he should still be able to draw those attacks as written by 1. Him creating the openings and making that punch or kick the most viable option for me. 2. By me being skilled enough to see and take the most viable option.

 

Decision tree posted

Thats why you haveother kata.

this is the thing with kata, is that they should not be seen in isolation, and this is particularly true with gyokko ryu.

I often joke with my students that kata training is training for the **** up principle. in other words if it can go wrong it probably will.

Lets start with koku and lets imagine i get it wrong leaving an oppening for something else to happen.

Example 1 he get too close and grabs my lapel
Solution perform kata number two Renyo.

Example 2: he grabs my sleeve
Solution perform danshu

Example 3: he retracts the kick before I can strike it and punches
Solution perform keto

etc etc.

This to me is the whole point of kata training. in that once mastered it does not matter what attacker does you always have an answer

Garth