To meat or not to meat, that is the question...

To meat or not to meat, that is the question... (Sidetracked from: http://www.martialartsplanet.com/forums/showthread.php?t=77714&page=7)

Says who? The meat I purchase gets me through the year. I could not afford to pay my bills, take care of my daughter, myself or my dogs, let alone the dogs I periodically rescue and adopt out.(Mostly abandoned fighting dogs) If I were to take up a vegan lifestyle.

This simply isn't true, the animals I purchase from a local farm live a much better life than they would out in the wild. And their death is far faster and easier than it would be out in the wild.

It's absurd to think that eating a steak is going to lead to such things.

Rape isn't about pleasure, it's about power. And in no way does eating a steak translate into becoming a rapist. The simple fact is that it's in our nature to consume meat. Other than animals that have taken on an active social relationship within our societies, there's no reason to think that people view farm animals as more than food generally speaking. While I understand the need to be humane, I don't see this as being something that is evil.

This simply isn't true, the animals at the local farm where I live have it far better than any animal in the wild.

Of course they find themselves under-stress, but that's not to say it would be any different out in the wild.

There's a cattle farm behind my house and the lady next to them raises horses. They have never shown signs of fear. But then again, maybe the farm in your example wasn't exactly humane per it's slaughter policy. And why am I picking up on the idea that you think riding horses is evil? Because again, I have access to at least two examples of them having it far better than they would out in the wild.

Again, you have a case concerning their treatment, however, they can be farmed in complete comfort. And I've seen as much......

But anyway, I'm going have to say that this is a matter you should take up with your God, your world view leaves this in Gods hands not mine.

 

Except where it concerns those who can't afford a vegan lifestyle and those who survive off of the farms, right? What happened to not placing the importance of one creature over another?

Not all land is sufficient for such things.

This assumes that livestock and humans are seen as being equal.

What do you mean if he felt that he could be? Did Jesus not have the ability to preform miracles concerning food? Did these miracles not use meat? He chose to eat meat when he could have had anything.

(Giving meat.)
John 21:5-8:

5. Then Jesus said unto them, "Children, have ye any meat?" And they answered Him, "No."
6. And He said unto them, "Cast the net on the right side of the boat, and ye shall find." They cast therefore, and now they were not able to draw it in for the multitude of fishes.
7. Therefore that disciple whom Jesus loved said unto Peter, "It is the Lord!" Now when Simon Peter heard that it was the Lord, he girded his fisher's coat unto him (for he was naked) and cast himself into the sea.
8. And the other disciples came in a little boat (for they were not far from land, but, as it were, two hundred cubits), dragging the net with fishes.

(And eating meat.)
Luke 24:42-43: "And they gave him (Jesus) a piece of a broiled fish, and of an honeycomb. And he took it, and did eat before them."

Seems Jesus has no problem with the suffering of animals.....

Well after the garden:


Genesis 9:1-3: says: "Then God blessed Noah and his sons, saying to them, "Be fruitful and increase in number and fill the earth. The fear and dread of you will fall upon all of the beasts of the earth and all the birds of the air, upon every creature that moves along the ground, and upon all the fish of the sea; they are given into your hands. Everything that lives and moves will be food for you. Just as I gave you the green plants, now I give you everything."


Romans 14:2-3: "One man's faith allows him to eat everything, but another man, whose faith is weak, eats only vegetables. The mans who eats everything must not look down on him who does not, and the man who does not eat everything must not condemn the man who does, for God has accepted him."


Acts 9:15:
9. Now on the morrow, as they were on their journey, and drew nigh unto the city, Peter went up upon the housetop to pray, about the sixth hour:
10. and he became hungry, and desired to eat: but while they made ready, he fell into a trance;
11. and he beholdeth the heaven opened, and a certain vessel descending, as it were a great sheet, let down by four corners upon the earth:
12. wherein were all manner of fourfooted beasts and creeping things of the earth and birds of the heaven.
13. And there came a voice to him, Rise, Peter; kill and eat.
14. But Peter said, Not so, Lord; for I have never eaten anything that is common and unclean.
15. And a voice came unto him again the second time, What God hath cleansed, make not thou common.

1 Corinthians:

25. Whatsoever is sold in the meat market, that eat, asking no question for conscience' sake;
26. for, "The earth is the Lord's, and the fullness thereof."
27. If any of those who do not believe bid you to a feast, and ye are disposed to go, whatsoever is set before you eat, asking no question for conscience' sake.

And again: (I'm sure there are more.)

John 21:5-8:

5. Then Jesus said unto them, "Children, have ye any meat?" And they answered Him, "No."
6. And He said unto them, "Cast the net on the right side of the boat, and ye shall find." They cast therefore, and now they were not able to draw it in for the multitude of fishes.
7. Therefore that disciple whom Jesus loved said unto Peter, "It is the Lord!" Now when Simon Peter heard that it was the Lord, he girded his fisher's coat unto him (for he was naked) and cast himself into the sea.
8. And the other disciples came in a little boat (for they were not far from land, but, as it were, two hundred cubits), dragging the net with fishes.


Luke 24:42-43: "And they gave him (Jesus) a piece of a broiled fish, and of an honeycomb. And he took it, and did eat before them."



Until God has this world go back to being in the state it was when Adam and eve were vegans, you have no right to judge evil that which God has deemed good.

 

Man... Jkyorzya just throws it all out there doesn't she.

Most of what she's posted in regards to meat woefully inaccurate.... and what's not is patently absurd.
Why am I not surprised?

It's a bizarre mix of Catholicism and veganism and
lets-be-friends-with-all-God's-fuzzy-little-animals schtick.

I seriously don't know how she's able to post some of that stuff with a straight face. It's hilarious.
To then tie veganism in with Jesus... man I'd **** myself laughing if I tried to string those two together.

 

Yup, pretty much. The worst part is, I grew up around animals and I'm someone who feels that animals should be given respect on a general level. (Sometimes I treat my dogs better than I do people to be quite honest.) But man oh man, this comes off as being an argument that starves a shark in order to save a tuna.

 

Hi blind,
I don't have time to be involved in another thread so I'll try to answer your points and then I intend to leave it.

What makes you think a vegan diet is more expensive? Meat and cheese are quite expensive.

If you could ask the animals if they wanted to be slaughtered at such a young age, what do you think they'd say?

Eating steak is in itself an atrocity, so I don't see your point.

People often say that and I'm only partially convinced. It doesn't much matter though one way or the other here, because he desired to rape her for some reason of his own and he over-rode her feelings to commit the terrible act and that was a very evil thing to do.

In my view they are both willful evils when the person is part of a wealthy nation.

No - we are herbivores, see previous links posted on the other thread, but people ignored it. You see this is why I don't have time to keep arguing here on thread after thread going around in circles making the same points over and over again. Here it is again:

So ask them where they'd rather be and if they mind being killed.

But you don't have to contribute to their suffering. You don't have to eat them. You are a herbivore culturally conditioned to eat meat. You could easily return to your natural dietary state.

Because it is. The horses wouldn't choose it - it is slavery. Horses are 'broken" which means their will - their spirit - has to be broken. Why would this be necessary if the horse was happy with the arrangement? Even then, they remain pretty feisty and non-compliant when they can get away with it, again indicating that they would not choose to be enslaved by humans.

My vegan ex-horse rider friends have told me what the process of horse breaking entails and how they are forcibly kept in check. Horse breaking is torture. Equate it with the breaking of a human spirit. How would it be if a human slave had his spirit broken until he became compliant? There's no difference at all.

(Edit - see also http://www.horsedeathwatch.com/ for the evils of horse racing).

No animals can be slaughtered in complete comfort and again it would not choose to die. You know that but have hardened your heart to it because you like meat. You don't need it - the death is needless. Would you be prepared to "slaughtered in complete comfort" to feed cannibals or would you rather live? Even if they fattened you up first, I expect you'd escape if you could.

Seriously - you should think about the phrase "slaughtered in complete comfort".

 

part two...

Again, I don't know why you think veganism is more expensive - you don't need to eat all those expensive substitute foods - you can eat well on the basics. And I'm guessing you don't "survive off the farms" so it is not really relevant. Whatever others do or don't so, you could avoid contributing to the suffering. I'm quite happy to state that it is more evil for people from wealthy industrialised nations to eat meat than people in other circumstances.

Regarding livelihood, people would have to find other things to do which would take a concerted international effort. We should make such efforts anyway to distribute the food and healthcare we already have.

Crop land is destroyed to raise cattle and that's inefficient. And we could still grow enough to feed everyone. And we could stop breeding so fast and furiously. It isn't like food or any other resource is truly free - someone or something has to pay for it.

On what grounds can anyone declare that animals and humans are not equal?

The stuff about Jesus and vegetarianism is yet another topic. Google "was Jesus vegetarian" and enjoy some light reading. There are numerous opinions, interpretations and different translations of certain passages. Regarding what I meant about "What do you mean if he felt that he could be?" I meant just that. I cannot know why he did or didn't or was or wasn't. It isn't actually relevant to the discussion either. I at no point claimed that Jesus was vegetarian or tried to argue that we should be vegetarian to be more like Jesus. Other people just chose to take the argument onto that footing because they know I'm inspired by Christianity, but as I've said so many times before, it is not the only faith path I'm influenced by. That's why when people have asked if I'm a Christian, I've said "yes but not in the way that people usually mean" or explained that I'm also influenced by other religions. I try to find the most benevolent position on each issue and I defend faith paths that sincerely make similar efforts. People just pull out the Jesus card every time they argue with me - typically when their other arguments are flagging or because they know they'll get popular support if they do a bit of Christian bashing. I have never said that Christianity is my sole influence - only that it isn't.

Why? Am I not part of God's creation? Isn't "what God has deemed good" a matter of human opinion and interpretation? Isn't religious history the story of humans trying to ascertain and interpret God's will - what is best for the greatest good of all? Can I not work towards the achievement of God's Kingdom on earth?

We have the free will to try to make the right moral choices. And before anyone calls me sanctimonious or accuses me of forcing my opinions on others again - that is what everyone is doing here.

 

If humans are naturally herbivores, then why such health risks on a vegan diet?

 

There are health risks with any unbalanced diet. And look at levels of obesity in the US and UK!

See http://www.vegansociety.com/html/food/nutrition/ for details of vegan nutrition.

 

humans are OMNIVORS - like pigs! we eat everything. does this mean that you hate all the carnivor animals and they are all evil?

 

Well I'm glad you've admitted that much.




Humans are omnivores by the way.

 

You can't just say we're omnivores when we're not. Biologically we are herbivorous - we are just culturally habituated to an omnivorous diet.

I've already posted these links twice now...

http://www.stevepavlina.com/blog/2005/09/are-humans-carnivores-or-herbivores-2/

http://www.tierversuchsgegner.org/wiki/index.php?title=Taxonomy

http://www.goveg.com/naturalhumandiet_physiology.asp

 

err... you really should do some better research. Obesity in the US and UK isn't down to eating meat. It's got a myriad of factors.

 

Nope, we're omnivores.

From the vegetarian research group:
http://www.vrg.org/nutshell/omni.htm

 

Speak for yourself. I only eat the best and shop Tesco's finest...

 

M&S is much nicer than Tesco

 

M&S sucks, it costs about 1million pounds per item and doesnt taste any better than supermarket stuff.
Remember, its not just fancy packaging, its M&S incredibly overpriced fancy packaging.


Also, ist this argument about weather we are omnivores or not a bit pointless, im pretty sure that i :

1. Eat meat
2. Am surviving perfectly well while eating meat.
3. Dont eat many vegetables at all.
4. no ill effects of the above.

Who cares wheter we are techinically an omnivore or not, fact is that humans can and will eat meat and can stay healthy whilst doing so.

 

I nearly almost fell off my chair then!

Good points.

 

I just have one thing to point out here...

We have teeth for tearing meat, and we have teeth for grinding plants... we are therefore omnivores. Ask any scientist. Humans are designed to eat meat. That doesn't mean you have to.. but I will continue to.

 

Then why post at all? Walking away from an argument you don't want to take up, is as easy as never getting involved. I do it all the time.

Well for one, almost every single vegan site I have ever visited has admitted as much. And two, I pay 550 dollars every six months for my meat.(Not counting the processing fee.) And way less for anything else I get off the guy. (I've known the guy pretty much my whole life. I even get free milk and eggs from time to time.)

The same thing a carrot would say if it could be asked. But the fact is, they don't know.

I'm not convinced that it is. So I guess I don't see your point either...

And this misses my point, it wasn't driven by an arbitrary snowballing from eating a steak or any other such small scale issue.

And just to be clear, I was speaking about sexual pleasure. And yes, it is true, it's about control and power. If they just wanted to get laid, they could pay for it and not run the risk of going to prison or being killed in the processes.. Something else is clearly going on.

Living in a wealthy country doesn't make 'you' wealthy. And to place eating steak on par with rape.... Well lets just leave it at that...

We are opportunistic feeders, if we weren't, we wouldn't be here. We are omnivores.

They don't know their going to be killed as they have no concept of such things. Second, they are better off on the farm in question as they are well fed, medically treated, free to roam plenty of land. Oh ye, and their not going to be torn limb from limb by a predator and left to die in the woods. (Of course the 'limb from limb' comment is referring to while they are still alive..) After that.....

I am an omnivore, and I already addressed the fact that I can't financially afford another diet. That aside, there is no evidence that humans were ever anything other than omnivorous.

The horses over at the place I mentioned are treated like royalty. I mean, you can leave their fence open and they won't leave. But yes, it sounds like slavery to me.... But then again I'm sure you consider yourself to be a slave owner sense you have a dog.. Right?

These horses are born and raised socially. (At least the ones in question.) There is no breaking of anything. While they have a more independent personality, they are quite clearly attached to their owners.

The horses I mentioned seem just fine.

I think maybe your projecting.

That's a mouth full... Sounds like your friend was involved with some nasty people, I know it happens, but then again, I've also seen the opposite. (One of the horses actually plays with my biggest male staffie. I'm not sure how it came about, but it happened. I was scarred the horse would trample him but she didn't.)



Besides, I'm starting to get the picture, everything is evil...

Well, I said farmed in complete comfort. (You know, raised in complete comfort.) But that doesn't matter sense they don't know their going to die.

It's not a matter of like, I remain unconvinced that it's wrong. Then theirs also the idea that my heart has been hardened. What makes you think I ever had any other position?

By all means, if you want to throw me some extra cash, I'll become a vegan. The rest of my family won't and I wouldn't allow it for my daughter. But I would. Or maybe I would go and by a recipe book for meat with the money.... Who knows at this point...

I don't know. Do you think a carrot would choose to be eaten if it could decide? The fact of the matter is, were talking about what actually is. And my reaction comes from the fact that I have an understanding of the concepts. Teach a cow to understand the concept and my values may change, as I'm sure you will stop eating plants the moment they start quoting Shakespeare..

Again, I'm sure the same could be said for a carrot if it were able to comprehend such things. Your statements don't actually address the reality of the situation.

^^:bang:^^