What's the deal with Don Angier and Yanagi Ryu? Is it genuine koryu or not? It's supposedly a sogo bujutsu ...... teaches kenjutsu, naginata, tanto, rope and of course aikijujutsu ... Is it real stuff or made up? I notice there is no Yanagi Ryu listed on koryu.com's ryuha list ... is Don Angier a member of the Nihon Budo Kyokai or Shinkokai??
Hello, First of all a school cannot be a member of the Nippon Kobudo Kyokai or the Nippon Kobudo Shinkokai if the headquarters is located outside Japan. So, Shidare Yanagi ryu would not qualify for membership even if it were confirmed to be authentic koryu. That said, Shidare Yanagi ryu's status as koryu is similar to Daito ryu's and unknown since no hard documentation exists to confirm its existence prior to the Meiji Restoration. According to Don Angier, Shidare Yanagi ryu was a small familial budo tradition passed to him by Yoshida Kenji, son of the rather enigmatic Yoshida Kotaro. What is fairly certain is Don Angier studied something under Yoshida Kenji since Don Angier has Yoshida family photos in his possession that no one else has seen before, including aikido/budo historian Stan Pranin. Furthermore, Daito ryu's Katsuykui Kondo, a student of Yoshida Kotaro, confirmed to me in person that Kotaro did have several densho in his possesion reflecting significant martial study prior to his training under Takeda Sokaku. FWIW, I was present in Japan in 1994 when Don Angier visited Katsuyuki Kondo, Stan Pranin and Meik & Diane Skoss (of koryu.com). At that time Meik Skoss told me he was aware of an earlier meeting between Don Angier and Shindo Muso ryu's Kaminoda sensei where he and Don compared hojojutsu waza over several old densho at Kaminoda's dojo. According to Meik this meeting was observed by many of Kaminoda's students to be a two way exchange of information between these men. So what is Shidare Yanagi ryu and what are its roots? That's a good question. Curiously, there is a school recognized by the Nippon Kodudo Kyokai called Shingetsu Muso Yanagi ryu jujutsu. Interestingly this school's curriculum includes kata employing a long handled daito similar to that used in Shidare Yanagi ryu aikijujutsu. Another possibility concerns a technical connection between Shidare Yanagi ryu and one of the many streams of Yoshin ryu. Since Yanagi and Yoshin both refer to a willow tree, such a connection at some point in the past is not that far fetched. After significant exposure to Shidare Yanagi ryu, Yoshin ryu, Yoshin Koryu and koryu in general, I suspect that Shidare Yanagi ryu as it exists today is significantly a reflection of Don Angier himself. Technically it demonstrates many characteristics of Edo Period koryu however, it does not demonstrate the pedagogy, or cultural and spiritual elements one also usually finds in such systems. I suspect Don Angier took the principles and kata he learned from Yoshida Kenji and over time significantly extrapolated on them creating the art reflected in his contemporary teachings. It must be added that Don Angier is a fantastic technician. His level of technical sensitivity and subtle execution of waza is among the best I've encountered in all my years of training. This opinion of his technical ability was also shared by my teacher, Takamura Yukiyoshi who first met Don Angier and observed Shidare Yanagi ryu in the late 1960's. See: [ame="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QvWiYcxTm2A"]Don Angier, Yoshida-ha Shidare Yanagi ryu - YouTube[/ame] So, is Don Angier's Shidare Yanagi ryu koryu? I don't think we'll ever know for sure but similar to an art like Hakko ryu or Toyama ryu, the evidence seems to suggest a gendai art with its roots in koryu. Toby Threadgill Takamura ha Shindo Yoshin ryu www.shinyokai.com
Toby, very nice information. Thanks for that. That youtube clip of Don Angier is truly beautiful. I've watched it many times. For all of the internet people who love to debate who "has aiki" and who doesn't, I don't think anybody could seriously argue that Angier sensei does not "have it". Hendry, not sure what you mean by "made up" in this context, but if you watch that youtube clip, you will see authentic aikijujutsu. To debate whether it's koryu or not seems to me to be peripheral to its inherent authenticity. Just to add another aspect to this, many of you have probably heard the accounts of Hapkido, as taught by Choi Yong Sul, being derived from Daito-ryu. Never confirmed, of course, and doubted by most Daito-ryu folks. There are a couple of informal Korean MA scholars who believe that it's quite possible that Choi's teacher in Japan was Kotaro Yoshida rather than (or in addition to) Takeda. This much I can tell you from hands-on experience in both a very traditional form of Hapkido and "mainline" Daito-ryu (in a study group affiliated with Kondo sensei), the techniques and essence of what I see in that youtube video are very similar to what I've seen for years from the Korean masters in our Hapkido kwan, and what I've seen and felt in Daito-ryu. IMO Angier sensei is a very underappreciated martial artist. We'd all be the richer if he had had a larger following, and had produced more long-time students who could transmit his art.
I have to admit I am not a fan of alot of the sword work shown in the video. Three areas in particular came to my attention. - Use of slow double time techniques against single time attacks. It looks good but it just isn't practical. - Lack of control of the centreline. - Going to the knees with any real purpose. Look at 1:38 at lack of balance caused by this. I could be wrong but that's just how I'm seeing the vid from my perspective. The Bear.
Hello, Posted by Polar Bear: "I have to admit I am not a fan of alot of the sword work shown in the video." No sweat. I don't care for lots of iaido I see. "Use of slow double time techniques against single time attacks. It looks good but it just isn't practical." I agree somewhat but remember kata and demostrations are not always intended to be "practical" Furthermore, I guess you're not a fan of many schools of kenjutsu, as such hyoshi is rather common place. "Lack of control of the centreline." Sorry but I don't really see a lack of control of the centerline. What I see is evasive control/awareness of the centerline. It's frequently a passive form of control in Shidare Yanagi ryu. "Going to the knees with(out) any real purpose. Look at 1:38 at lack of balance caused by this." First of all are you really watching the kata? The ****achi STARTS in heiza kamae. So, he's not going to his knees, he's already there. Secondly, there are a lot of kata in kenjutsu where one drops deeply or to the knees to execute an evasion. It's one of many effective forms of avoiding a sword attack. To imply there's not reason to drop below an attacking blade demonstrates an curious unfamiliarity with what you are seeing if you are a student of classical JSA. In the case of the this video, the subtlety of this particular waza is very difficult to observe. As I've been uchitachi for this waza I'll try to explain what is happening. The attack is a mengiri to an seated opponent. As the attacking blade descends, the ****achi spins to the right to evade the attack while simultaneously drawing his sword horizontally. As the spin is completed to ****achi's blade enters over the uchitachi's blade, decapatating the uchitachi. It is a VERY difficult and risky proposition but many of the most decisive iai/batto kata are. They assume an opponent in an advantageous position. The loss of balance is this case was caused because the uchitachi stepped too far forward in his attack. Since the ****achi's back is turned during the spin ****achi did not see where his uchitachi was until the cut was already being executed. The only way shiachi could avoid cutting uchitachi's neck was to compromise his balance in an effort to stop the cut. The loss of balance had nothing to do with ****achi being on his knees. (FWIW...Don Angier never used a habiki or iaito in his demos. Always a razor sharp shinken. The uchitachi was at pretty serious risk of injury in that kata!) There's no doubt Shidare Yanagi ryu iai is quite unorthodox. It demonstrates some very unusual elements. Since Don Angier also studied kembu it is possible some elements of kembu crept into his expression of Yanagi ryu. Regardless, the efficacy of his swordwork was impressive to experience. The man weilded a sword quite impressively in my experience. Toby Threadgill Takamura ha Shindo Yoshin ryu www.shinyokai.com
Hi Toby, Is it common to train impractical sword techniques? I have only done some Aikiken and Chinese weapons in EMA so I really don't know. The technique starting a 1:08. The attacker cuts, the defender moves back and offline. If the attacker continues through and curves the blade there is nothing to stop the cut. (the next point will seem nit picky in the extreme) Against an opponent with a double edged blade you are exposed to the short edge of the sword. I completely agree with your point on body alignment but I always try to couple this with the sword either threatening or binding with the opponents sword. I certainly wouldn't like to put my life on body alignment alone. I am unfamiliar with classical JSA. I am a western swordsman studying the swordsmanship of Johannes Liechtenhauer. So I am looking at this from a western perspective. It would be considered unwise indeed to drop to one or both knees in the western school. From the sparring I have done in highland broadsword and Longsword, I most certainly wouldn't give it a go because no matter how much you train on your knees you will never out pace or out position a swordsman on their feet. This is just my experience, I would love you hear if your experience is different. To have seen someone pull this off in free play (sparring) would amaze me! I don't know the gentleman in the video or his style I am commenting pure on my view of swordsmanship no offence is intended to students of this style. I am just interested in why the style does things this way. The Bear.
Ha, because I am familiar with fencing and fighting. I approached it from the perspective of facing this sword style and what holes I would look for. The Bear.
I've seen some of his demos before on youtube. I think the issue with gauging effectiveness of the styles is difficult as they are shown in this fashion and trained in this fashion throughout the world. there is little actual free play shown where cuts are performed with genuine intent to land a telling cut and the each exponent can react freely to the others movements. This, I think is the only way you will ever find out if a fight method is effective and viable in combat. Otherwise he looks well skilled in his style and it sure looks pretty. Regards Teddy Bear
Back to the original question as to whether it is real Koryu or not, does it matter? If what he does is any good then it is good whether it is real Koryu or not. Regards Teddy Bear
Hello, just another wma'er jumping in; I agree to what you say here. What do you mean? Videos showing this system, or videos in general showing fencing? You find quite a lot of vidos of WMA where there is (attempts at) freeplay with genuine intent to land a telling cut, and the opponent is free to react in any fashion desired (allthough most attempt to preform counters as stated in the old WMA-manuals) IMHO the closest thing you'll get to "the real thing" is to find the perfect mix between going full contact (with protection) and drilling technique. This is an important point: THERE ARE MANY REASONS FOR FENCING WITH SWORDS! If the point is to look pretty, then I guess this dude is doing a good job It depends on what you're interrested in. If you're interrested in real Koryu and believe him (if he is) claiming he's doing real Koryu while he's not doing it, then it's a problem, even if he's the best person in the world with a sword. If I wanted to learn the ultimate swordstyle, then I wouldn't care wether it was real koryu or not. Personally, I think that all styles are coloured and influenced by the individual, and that slavic following of technique will be a restraint for the individual. But that is irrelevant if what you're doing is to help preserving an old system by doing it "live".
Hi Stolenbjorn What do you mean? Videos showing this system, or videos in general showing fencing? You find quite a lot of vidos of WMA where there is (attempts at) freeplay with genuine intent to land a telling cut, and the opponent is free to react in any fashion desired (allthough most attempt to preform counters as stated in the old WMA-manuals) I was meaning videos showing JMA systems. Yeah I have seen a lot of the WMA stuff and I like it!!! IMHO the closest thing you'll get to "the real thing" is to find the perfect mix between going full contact (with protection) and drilling technique. True, you need to do drills to train the techniques and free play to find how it really works. This is an important point: THERE ARE MANY REASONS FOR FENCING WITH SWORDS! If the point is to look pretty, then I guess this dude is doing a good job I think you got my meaning there!!!!! lol! It depends on what you're interrested in. If you're interrested in real Koryu and believe him (if he is) claiming he's doing real Koryu while he's not doing it, then it's a problem, even if he's the best person in the world with a sword. If I wanted to learn the ultimate swordstyle, then I wouldn't care wether it was real koryu or not. Personally, I think that all styles are coloured and influenced by the individual, and that slavic following of technique will be a restraint for the individual. But that is irrelevant if what you're doing is to help preserving an old system by doing it "live".[/QUOTE] Yeah, but the whole Koryu thing these days seems like a re-branding job of JMA stuff for them to get control back centralised in Japan. It doesn't mean that folk don't do authentic Japanese arts. Regards Teddy Bear
The function of some kata is to teach principle, not to replicate actual combat. Therefore some kata are formalized drills, not a representation of freestyle conflict. Movements in these type of kata are modified or simplified to focus on one area of knowledge study and refinement of movement. Consider a boxer using a speedbag. Since samurai used single edged katana you are outside their paradigm. FWIW...When the Portugese showed up in Nagasaki with rapiers the Japanese samurai successfully and quickly adapted their tactics to address the change in the swordwork they faced. That's one of the basic differences between WSA and JSA. Evasive movement with blindingly fast and decisive counter attacks is common place in JSA. The following is a good friend of mine and the fastest swordsman I've ever seen in JSA or WSA. Notice the subtle taisabaki (evasive body shifting) and infrequent hard sword to sword contact. [ame="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QLCVBX3iyDk&feature=related"]YouTube[/ame] FWIW I started my martial arts training in WSA in 1978. I loved it and continued it for about 6 years. It is still a part of me. That said I find neither system superior, just different. These differences are significantly based on the differing realities faced in their individual environments. The old saw about who would win, a samurai or a western swordsman is silly to me. About the kneework. Consider that the cultural realities of feudal Japan required an enormous amount of experience knee walking indoors. Therefore Japanese were amazingly adept at fighting and moving on their knees. Therefore, do not underestimate how dexterous a samurai would be and how fast and efficiently he could move in that position. It was what they did everyday and they did it fantastically well. A western swordsman unfamiliar with such abilites would be at a severe disadvantage to assume that a samurai would be slow or cumbersome on his knees. No offense taken. Classical JSA is an interesting beast. Unlike our western traditions, its knowledge has been passed forward by direct transmisson from licensed teachers to students including the issuance of complex land catalogs of techniques and tactics. Some of these traditions can trace a direct non-broken lineage back to the 1400's. That said all martial traditions must be viewed within the historical context of their existence. To take them out of that context ignores the significance of what it is they offer to us as interested parties. All my best to you, Toby Threadgill / Kaicho Takamura ha Shindo Yoshin ryu www.shinyokai.com
Indeed a lot of styles have techniques that end up on the knees (just out of my mind: katori shinto ryu, tendo ryu). The observation about samurai being able to move in this position is quite right. In an historical study, context is always the key, but unfortunately it is often not considered, the individual taking for granted that the practioners of old thought and moved like modern men. Careful, there are actually some traditions wich have been passed down for a long time. I am actually practicing one (shillelagh bata from the ramsay family, who cannot be dated with precision, but could very well be older than TSKSR) and there are others like sicilian liu bo, french baton, portuguese jogo do pau or canari island stick. Unfortunetly, these arts don't have much documentation (except for some books about their techniques) for they were not practiced (for the majority) by an elite who could afford printing books or even learning to read. So much of it is oral teaching by drills and even some "esoterical" elements.
Hi Maxime, I was familiar with the Portuguese jogo do pau but not the others. Like I stated, the Japanese Koryu demonstrate a rather unique amount of historical documentation supporting their teachings being passed thru successive generations. I addition the documentation supports these traditions being passed forward in a very consistent manner. I have a collection of over 30 densho in my possession, some dating back to the 1600's. Most of these demonstrate unbroken lineages and consisent teachings that are confirmed in other documentation. For example, I have two Yoshin ryu Iai Tachi jutsu densho indicating a significant period between issuance. They are identical in every way. I'm sure there are western traditions that have been passed down thru time but we have little hard evidence to confirm the degree to which what is taught today in these arts is reflective of what was taught in the past. They could be very similar or very different. We just don't have any way of knowing for sure. Agreed, it's more an academic exercise but interesting stuff none the less. All my best, Toby Threadgill / TSYR www.shinyokai.com
Some Japanese Koryu arts have changed over the centuries, and not for the better, by their own (private) admission. Our own Terry Brown (a leading authority on indigenous English MA) was contacted by a Koryu for advice on making their art more "martial", as they felt they had lost their way. Admittedly, it's rare. However, kudos to that koryu for seeking outside help. That takes serious humility. Best regards, -Mark
Heard that one before, was it really a koryu and who contacted them? An exponent or the soke himself? Considering how most koryu systems work, only the soke could have the authority to change the curriculum.
No clue. He did use the term Koryu on SFI. He assisted them as asked, but never received updates from them on what changes they implemented, if any. I do recall reading about another JMA (koryu or not, I have no idea) who discovered an old scroll in their tradition that contradicted their current techniques and teachings. After examination, they changed their current techniques to accord with the older teachings. Rather rare for a JMA, but in HES, it's par for the course. Very best regards, -Mark
What you say is true. My teacher was frequently critical of those schools that degenerated into what he called "pretty dancing" Scrolls are just scrolls afterall. If the teachers or students drop the ball, all the paper in the world can't make up for it. And art's soul can be lost in this manner. Other koryu like the Araki ryu are supposed to evolve as they are passed forward but only those holding inka can drive this evolution. These instructors from what I've been told are supposed to stay consistent with the theories and core principles of the art, only adapting the physical representation of those principles. Frankly, this sounds rather suspect. I'm not saying it didn't happen but I'd sure be very suspicious about such a claim. It's much more likely an authentic koryu would approach a related school in it's own lineage for such consultation. Going outside Nihon koryu would be, well.... rather bizarre. The Takamura ha Shindo Yoshin ryu has lost transmission of a short set of naginata kata that were once practiced. These kata are still taught in Akiyama Yoshin ryu naginata. If we wanted to reintroduce them, that would be the source, not some Chinese Quan school. It just doesn't make sense on many levels. Toby Threadgill / TSYR Takamura ha Shindo Yoshin ryu
I agree with you on this. From what I know of Mr. Brown he practices kung fu and reconstructed english martial arts like broadsword. I haven't read that he did any two-handed swordwork and even if he did that would still be an odd choice. There are many koryu styles in Japan who haven't lost their combative aspects, and like Threadgill sensei wrote, many are related one way or another (most are originated from a handful of the originals ryu ha). And I find it even stranger that they would choose to contact someone who wrote a book about english martial arts - wich is probably unknown to most in Japan - on the other side of the globe, to help them. Now if it is an independent gendai school based in the UK I could understand, maybe a westerner sensei of a koryu who wished to have an outsider opinion (even if that would be terribly improper in most schools), or even a military man opinion (as I understand he was at one point). And if the school had enough guts to ask for an outside help, I would think they could at least divulge their name. Anyway I think we are drifting from the original point. I heard of Don Angier before, but never saw his technique before this video footage and must say I am not disapointed. Koryu or gendai? On that I am not knowledgeable enough to say.
