Tim Cartmell Interview (IMA + BJJ)

Slindsay · Dec 21, 2007

Found this over on Bullshido, figured about half of you guys would be so excited by this you'd mess your pants up and th other half would get annoyed

http://www.neijia-forum.info/2007/01/25/interview-with-tim-cartmell-englisch/

Tim Cartmell started practicing Kung Fu San Soo when he was eleven years old. He studied this style for about twelve years. In 1984 he moved to Taiwan. Tim competed succesfull in some full contact tournaments in Taiwan. 1985 he went to mainland China. In Beijing he studied with Sun Jian Jun, the doughter of Sun Lutang the Sun Taijiquan and the Bagua Zhang of the Family.

Some of his teachers are: Kung Fu San Soo with Ted Sias and Jimmy H. Woo. Yi Quan mit Xu Hong Ji and his son Xu Zhen Wang. Yang Taijiquan and Xu Xi Dao with Chen Zhuo Zhen. Yang and Zhao Bao Taijiquan with Lin Ah Long. Yiquan mit Gao Liu De. Chen Stil Taijiquan (olf Frame) with Xu Fu Jin. Gao Stil Bagua Zhang and Chen Pan Ling Style Taijiquan with Luo De Xiu. He Bei Xing Yi Quan with Liang Ke Quan. Sun Bagua Zhang and Taijiquan with Sun Jian Yun, Sun Bao An and Liu Yan Long, Shan Xi Xing Yi with Mao Ming Chun.

This interview with Tim Cartmell was conducted by KHK in January 2007

Karl-Heinz: As you went to China for learning traditional martial arts, what were your expectations?

Tim: I had practiced External martial arts for about 10 years and was intrigued by the information I read about the Internal styles. What attracted me to the IMA was the idea of using the opponent’s own force against him. I really had no other expectations.

Karl-Heinz: How was training arranged, was there sparring and impact training with pads as example? If there was sparring, do you use protectors and how was the level of contact?

Tim: It depended on the teacher. My Xingyiquan teacher had us do a lot of conditioning as well as the forms, standing and drills on pads and the heavybag. We sparred full contact with gear on and also practiced standing wrestling. Most of my Taijiquan teachers limited practice to push hands drills and free form push hands that included chinna (joint locking) and throwing but not striking.

Karl-Heinz: Where there any conditioning exercises in the traditional schools you visited in china? Is there an special exercise you like to share?

Tim: All of my teachers had some conditioning exercises besides forms training. Many emphasized leg strength and the strength of the hips and waist. Some of my teachers also had us practice with heavy weapons.

Karl-Heinz: Are you doing conditioning exercises? Do you work with weights?

Tim: All my classes begin with conditioning exercises. If you are not fit you will not be able to fight, no matter how good your technique is. I spend an hour or two a day outside class time and sparring practice on conditioning exercises. I do a lot of neck bridging exercises, inverted work (variations of hand stand exercises) squat work, ground exercises, pull ups, special flexibility exercises and striking the heavy bag. I don’t lift weight or otherwise use any apparatus.

Karl-Heinz: In the Taiji styles you learn, where there any single pattern exercises, where you do repetitions of an single movement over and over?

Tim: Most of my Taijiquan teachers taught the art with single movement practice first, and later linked the movements together into forms. A student should be able to execute single movements correctly and be proficient with the applications of the movements before learning a new movement. What is the point of learning a new movement when you cannot use the movements previously learned?

Karl-Heinz: Have you done any competitions in china?

Tim: I fought in several Sanda (full contact) tournaments. I won all but one.

Karl-Heinz: As many know, you are very successful in Brazilian Jiu Jitsu and you even write a book named “Passing the Guard” together with Ed Beneville about it. You won as example the Pan American Competition in 2004 and 2005 and a second place in the “Grapplers Quest 10″ in Las Vegas in 2006 and many more. Did your training in the IMA´s help you in learning BJJ? If yes, in which way?

Tim: I think my IMA training helped me indirectly. The techniques of the IMA are useless on the ground, but the body method and sensitivity training of the IMA helped me learn the BJJ faster than I would have I believe.

Karl-Heinz: What was the reason to learn BJJ?

Tim: I learned BJJ because the Chinese martial arts have very little ground fighting, and never wrestle on the ground. Since, statistically speaking over 50 percent of all real fights end up on the ground, I felt it necessary to learn ground fighting i order to be a well rounded fighter.

Karl-Heinz: You translated the book “The Method of Chinese Wrestling”. Is Shuai Chiao a part of your training?

Tim: I never studied Shuai Jiao. Many of the throws I learned in the Baguazhang are taken from the Shuai Jiao however.

Karl-Heinz: Many ima teachers in the west say, that you have to train minimum 10 years to use the ima´s, especially Taiji for fighting / selfdefence. In my opinion, this makes no sense. What do you think about this?

Tim: If you have a good teacher of the IMA and practice hard, you should begin to develop real fighting/self defense abilities within several months of training. Teachers that tell their students it takes 10 years to learn how to fight with any martial art either don’t know how to fight themselves, or don’t know how to teach. Learning to fight is the same as learning any other physical skill. If you went to a swimming instructor who told you it would take 10 years of training before you could jump in the pool, would you sign up for lessons?

Karl-Heinz: When do beginners start tui shou at Shen Wu, and when do they start sparring. Is there a special sequence of sparring drills? Do you students spar with protectors?

Tim: My students normally begin controlled, non-cooperative sparring in their first class. We don’t practice orthodox tui shou at my academy. Most of the traditional push hands practices are a waste of time for real fighting. Students start out with controlled, situational sparring and progress to full contact free fighting over time. My students are trained to compete in BJJ tournaments with a gi, submissions wrestling tournaments and mixed martial arts tournaments, as well as self defense, so sparring is a big part of our training.

Karl-Heinz: At Shen Wu you there is a yearly (?) full contact tournament. What are the rules Tim?

Tim: I have a full contact tournament every year. The rules are no biting, eye gouging or elbow strikes. It is not allowed to knee during the ground fight. All punches, kicks, and knee strikes are allowed standing. All throws and takedowns are legal. On the ground, any submission (joint lock) technique or choke is legal. It is also legal to strike with the hands during the ground fight.

Karl-Heinz: What are the typical injuries in this tournament. I ask this, because many people think of some supernatural powers when the hear “Internal Martial Arts”.

Tim: Because all of the fighters are well trained and well conditioned, injuries are surprisingly few. Of course, cuts bruises and the occasional joint dislocation happen. Most of the competitors come from a BJJ, Thai boxing and wrestling background. Although invited, IMA practitioners rarely compete in my tournament.

Karl-Heinz: While you where in china, do your teachers mention chi or things like inner alchemie? As i saw in your forum you know the article on taichizen.com on some “secrets” in the Sun Style of Madame Sun Jian Yun as example. Do you think there are any secrets?

Tim: None of my teachers talked about chi in relation to martial arts. I found that the more a teacher talked about chi, the less real ability he had.

Sun Jianyun once told me a story about her father. She said when Sun Lutang was on his deathbed, his students asked him if there really was any secret to the martial arts. Sun replied that there was a secret: “practice.”

I often wonder why the teachers with the “secrets” are not winning all the Sanda tournaments or the UFC and Pride.

Karl-Heinz: “… and also I would like to know your point of view about the “straightness” of the spine in the IMAs, because - as I know nearly all of the classic NeiJias stresses on a straight spine (as well as my teachers), but in your videos, I saw you (successfully) working with a “natural curved” spine. I’m really curious about that - do you think that a straight spine, especially “tucking the tailbone” isn’t really necessary in the Nei Chias? And that the stress we laid in the training to get a straight spine is abundant? Also I would like to know from where - so far as you know - this (classical) idea with the straight spine comes.”

Tim: Using force to tuck the tailbone under is the best way to lose power. No legitimate trainer or coach in any other physical endeavor that requires an output of force would tell an athlete to pull his tailbone under or collapse his chest. A tucked tailbone and sunken chest is referred to as “senile posture,” the posture of the very old. Young children on the other hand stand up straight maintaining the natural curves in the spine. Small children have not yet learned bad habits of body use, and therefore have perfect, natural and correct posture. Adults would do well to emulate the posture of small children rather than accelerate the aging process by tucking their tailbone. I am not so arrogant as to try and “correct” millennia of evolution and nature’s design by telling my students their natural posture is incorrect, and that they must force their bodies into unnatural postures.

Karl-Heinz: What are your plans for the future?

Tim: I plan to continue studying, training, teaching and competing. I also have plans to produce two more instructional DVDs this year.

Tim, thank you for the interview.
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Yohan · Dec 21, 2007

I really like what I've seen from Tim Cartmell. He seems to be one of the few well-publicized, competent, skilled, authentic CMA practitioners who is pragmatic about what he does, patching the holes in his system with authentic grappling work.

Hats off to Tim, I hope he can get some real good guys fighting from his gym. If he was in my area, I'd probably train with him.

windtalker · Dec 22, 2007

The contents of that interview probably won't be well-recieved by some critics that launch attacks on more traditional styles on a regular basis. Yet I found the interview quite interesting and would like to learn more about Tim Cartmell and his approach to IMA. Does IMA mean internal martial arts? That includes Tai Chi and the others mentioned right?

Those kind of articles lend to creditablitiy of martial arts. Wish there were more posted here on MAP.

callsignfuzzy · Dec 22, 2007

I like Cartmell's stuff. His book on throws was very good, just talked about straight biomechanics instead of the "extend your chi" stuff that I can't relate to. I've seen some of the posts on his website too, solid stuff.

Windtalker-yep, IMA=Internal Martial Arts. My impression, and I could be wrong, is that Bagua/Pa Kua is Cartmell's specialty.

Slindsay · Dec 22, 2007

This thread seriously needs some more drama, whats wrong with you guys? Should I have posted this in the IMA Forum? :-(

Fire-quan · Dec 22, 2007

Just wait till that secret Chinese groundfighting is found... hiding in a village in North China.

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Tim Cartmell Interview (IMA + BJJ)

Slindsay All violence is necessary

Yohan In the Spirit of Yohan Supporter

windtalker Pleased to return to MAP

callsignfuzzy Is not a number!

Slindsay All violence is necessary

Fire-quan Banned Banned

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Tim Cartmell Interview (IMA + BJJ)

Slindsay All violence is necessary

Yohan In the Spirit of Yohan Supporter

windtalker Pleased to return to MAP

callsignfuzzy Is not a number!

Slindsay All violence is necessary

Fire-quan Banned Banned

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