Why No Wing Chung in UFC?

Wing Chung chain punching is very logical and seems like it would be effective. I have personally used it against an amature boxer and sent him over the hedges (Vunak style).

Vunak believes that it is an effective way of countering wrestling takedowns; in fact, he states on his video on the straightblast that if a wing chung man is taken down by a grappler, there is something very wrong with his wing chung.

My question is why we don't see any wing chung, especially the straight blast, in UFC/ MMA events. Is it that the stance is less flexible than a kickboxer's stance? Seems like a poor excuse as you can straightblast from non-traditional stances (as in JKD).

 

Vitor knows how to use the straight blast. http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=3158995112784955464

 

Oh, that's it! Thanks, KF!

Still... why don't others use it more. I'd look at that clip and think, "Hm, that was effective!" And try to incorporate it. I don't see why there isn't a straightblast every other round.

 

Time for some reality people....

I'm curious how you guys figure that Vitor Belfort has anything to do with Wing Chun?

He's never studied Wing Chun or JKD.
That art doesn't appear on his bio anywhere... and he's certainly not known for being a WC fighter that somehow wandered into UFC by mistake. If some of you guys know of his secret WC training or past.. then by all means please post it up.

He hasn't released instructional vids on WC or straight blast. But... he has released instructional vids on boxing that include strikes, footwork, defense etc. (VB's Ultimate Vale Tudo Boxing Techniques)

So seriously, why would anyone give the credit to Wing Chun or straight-blast instead of boxing?

Why is his punching in that video anymore than the good old fashioned 1, 2 punch with decent footwork and forward movement?

That's just it... it's not.

Seems to me some basic boxing skills worked for him. Not Wing Chun. Not straight blast.

Boxing. Basic Boxing.

 

Surely the straight blast is best when unexpected?

So when you're squaring up toe-to-toe in the UFC and you see a straight blast coming as you're watching for them to make a move, you'd just step off the line and outta the way, wouldn't you?

 

I'm sure Wing Chun can do well in MMA against an average opponent, when applied with other arts.. I sparred with a Wing Chun guy ages ago and didn't have a lot of answers to his quick hands (but my stand up clinching and boxing was crap then). End of the day though, you can't rely on one art. You need the whole package...ground, clinch, throws/takedowns, standup.

 

slipthejab, out to save us from ourselves again.

You obviously are very confused about a great many things. The debate isn't about what Vitor Belfort studied, it's about why WC techniques aren't utilized more in the UFC.

Vitor did a WC straightblast. It was classic chain punching with vertical fists which he continued even while the opponent was on the ground.

This technique is not part of the cannon of western boxing.

You don't have to be a sifu in WC to incorporate one WC technique, namely the straightblast. Regardless of what his bio says on the websites you go to and the google searches you spend your time on--what he did was a WC straightblast.

So if a guy who studies only BJJ throws a flying knee, and someone suggests the technique is from muy thai--you'll say it can't be muy thai because to your knowledge the guy only studied BJJ. Just try to think about your argument a little and you won't confuse yourself so much.

I thought you were supposed to be the boxing guru here on MAP. Kempofist (and even me with my limited experience in WC and boxing) recognized the difference between what was shown on the clip (straightblast) and 1, 2 punch with forward momentum.

The straightblast is not a 1,2 punch... more like a 1,2,3,4,5,6,7,8 punch with verticle fists down the opponents centerline while rushing forward. The stance and the linear strikes are also defining characteristics.

Now, this thread isn't going to get derailed by you slipthejab, into a quagmire of defining what a straightblast is... if you can't recognize it from the clip and see how that is not part of the western boxing cannon, you're just too ignorant to post on the subject.

Stupid. Plain stupid.

 

Well, you could say that about any technique.

The point about the straightblast is you have to time it for when the opponent isn't expecting it--for example, you roundhouse kick his thigh, causing pain that distracts him--BAM!: straightblast him.

If you go for a double leg takedown, you're gonna get a knee in the face or sprawled on. If you feint a jab, distract your opponent, then come in, you have much better chances of taking your opponent down.

Same thing w/ the straightblast. You need to set it up right; but once set up, it's pretty much indefensible.

 

If this thread turns into a Slip vs Flashlock thread then you can bet your bottom dollar one of us Kung Fu mods will close it. Please keep whatever arguments you have out of this forum or there will be ramifications.


Fin.

 

Go look up Sami Berik. Base is WC and TCC. He's had to move away from them and into more "traditional" MMA training to remain competitive.

http://www.sherdog.com/fightfinder/fightfinder.asp?FighterID=8972
http://www.samiberik.com/

 

What Vitor does is not classic Wing Chun chain punching. It's just punching quickly with quick 1-2 straight punches. There is no tucked in elbows with the fists punching along a centreline. I did Wing Chun for about 2 years and I never seen anyone chain punch like that clip.

As for it being a 'straight blast'... probably if straight blast means quick punching techniques while advancing. Obviously that kind of technique is going to be most effective when someone leaves themselves open but the reason you don't see it so much is because well it usually wont work against someone with experience. If you rush forward against someone who knows how to counter then uh oh.

Also flashlock if someone only studied BJJ and threw a flying knee it's rather unlikely that they are going to throw anything like a 'muay thai knee' because unsuprisingly you need to train those. If I threw a hook without training any striking arts its not going to be a hook from anywhere its just going to be a hook. So in the video Vitor is not throwing a 'Wing Chun straightblast' because 1. it doesn't look like Wing Chun techniques and 2. he hasn't trained in Wing Chun. You can argue that what he did is entirely compatible with Wing Chun theory but to try and credit Wing Chun anytime anyone attacks quickly with repeated punches seems a bit silly to me.

 

I am no longer going to respond to his posts, problem solved.

 

Thanks--interesting background.

 

I agree with Slip. That wasn't a wing chun chain punch. It was just a lot of consecutive punches. Not something you'd see in an average boxing match, that's true. But it is a logical application of boxing technique to a non-boxing ruleset.

And for the record, my boxing trainer did encourage me to throw that kind of sequence in training. And it's a regular part of many boxing workouts for the heavy bag. I've generally heard it called a "punchout" drill. Seems aptly named in this case.

As for why you don't see more wing chun in the UFC, my theory is simple: One of the defining characteristics of MMA is this focus on proven and verifiable technique. Most MMA fighters are going to use things that have been shown to be effective. A smaller percentage will go ahead and say "Yeah? Watch this!" And then pull out something new (or previously believed to be ineffective). See Maurice Smith's high kicking after years of high kicks being an MMA pariah. Now they're standard.

If someone from wing chun could demonstrate that chain punching (as taught in wing chun) was effective, MMA guys would take note. But there hasn't been anyone like that. The one or two wing chun guys who have entered UFC were dispatched handily. And nobody else has stepped up since.

So the answer to your question ("why doesn't wing chun... ") is simply because nobody has shown it to be effective in that setting. That's not to say that it couldn't be. But most people aren't going to train for months and months for a big fight and then pin their success on unproven methods.



Stuart

 

My only exposure to WC is through Vunak who blasts like what was shown on the video. I think there are WC guys who say how Vunak does the straightblast isn't WC. Purists, and they're entitled to their opinion--but I think Vunak's point is valid.

We might have different definitions of what can be categorized under the heading of WC, but I think we can agree the basic principles of the straight blast were utilized to end that fight; they were unique enough to those principles that the balance shifted from boxing to WC in my opinion.

But let's not get sidetracked with labels. That technique, whether you call it a boxer's 1,2 punch with a charge, or a straightblast, I think, could be seen more often in MMA events. I think fighters are missing opportunities to utilize it after they rock their opponent with a clean shot, or maybe even with simple 1/2 beat timing or after simple feints.

 

This I agree with. Though I can think of many instances when a fighter has been rocked and then the other guy goes into a blitz of one sort or another to finish it. And generally, it's been precisely this sort of consecutive punching. What made Belfort's puncing different was that he pulled that out before the other guy was stunned.


Stuart

 

If you're being very strict in your definition, then it's possibly not a WC straightblast depending on which sifu you talk to. I guess some of them get down to details of whether it's WC if you're locking your arms out at the end of the punches or not. I think it's more WC than western boxing: I'm being slightly loose with it, but it looks to me that the guy is chain punching down the center line while running directly into his opponent with vertical fists. For me, that meets the criteria.

Yes, I've done those drills in my boxing training as well, but you were not taught to do the punching as you ran forward as fast as you can. It's such a stupid technique, isn't it? But, oh, so effective!

Yeah, I think you're right. I've found even on these silly forums that fighters are extreamly conservative, and it makes sense to be. Unfortunately, you might miss out on other options. And you're also right about investing months in something when there are quicker alternatives.

But in those quick fixes, I think maybe some things are getting lost.

All of this stems from watching the last UFC that came out a couple days ago. Did you catch it? I had never seen Andersen fight before. I was very impressed with his striking within the clinch--surgical, precise. They need more of that. The fights get so "mushy".

Maybe I was just in a strange mood, but until the last fight I found it all a bit boring. They train these guys in what not only works well, but can be trained quickly. It makes a lot of sense for that purpose, but sometimes this mix of MA just doesn't... seem to mix.

You've got, for instance, a black belt in BJJ, but let's say 40% of the time he's standing up and striking... and what you see is... mediocre muy thai! Or a striking expert is put on the ground, and yes, he's been working hard these past 2 months on his Jui Jutsu... but is it world class like his Muy thai? No. So half the fight, one or both of the fighters are mediocre because you can't be a master in both striking and grappling. And because they're just covering the bases in the weak spots of their game, you miss more specialized techniques like straightblasts.

It's a vicious circle: they don't learn the technique, so no one does the technique, so no one bothers with the technique. The technique could be killer, but until someone takes a risk and commits to training it and testing in the ring, it's ignored or unfairly dismissed.

It's possible that WC fighters don't have the competetive mentality to participate in these types of events--they're more spirtually minded. Could straight WC be effective? Probably not. But choosing from the great salad bar of MA, fighters could certainly pick the straightblast, tweak it like Vunak did, and use it in the ring, which I believe was proven in KF's clip.

 

As is obvious from your usual rhetoric here on MAP... no one can save you from yourself. In fact if you look at the vast majority of responses to your posts... no one even tries.

Either you don't know jack about boxing or about WC or about both. He was throwing lefts and rights... the basic 1's and 2's and moving forward just like it taugh in the fundamentals of boxing. His fists are basically side by side... not one over the other and his knuckles are facing the ground not a vertical fist as is usually the case in a the straight blast. He's punching with his whole body... notice the hip movement as he propels himself forward. So really either talk about something you know about or shut up. It's that simple.

The Vitor Belfort vid got posted and you instantly jumped into agreeance thaty this was a 'straight blast'... when in fact:

1) It's not
2) Vitor Belfort has no WC background. None. Read his bio.
3) He's got a boxing background. Again read his bio.
4) He's not advocating a straight blast... but in fact advocates boxing.

Err... wrong again. The left and right thrown continuously while moving forward are part of the boxing canon. It's basic first year boxing. He certainly didn't pick it up for WC... because he's never trained WC. Why is that so hard for you to figure out?

Oh do shut up. How can it be a WC straight blast when he's never ever trained in WC? Yet he has trained in western style boxing and has even put out instructionals where he shows this basic punch strategy. What planet are you living on that you make some sort of bizarre jump that his basic boxing skills are WC?!

Dude lay off the WC dogma... it's making you look silly.

Your talking in circles and using **** poor analogies because you're trying to make a leap of logic that makes no sense. Analogies are always one of the first responses of people that can't deal directly with the scenario at hand.

1) He has no background in WC. Never studied it ever.

2) His fists are not vertial punches.

3) He throwing and landing with a horizontal fist and landing with the whole fist... not exactly a hallmark of WC.

LOL!
You're a genius. So anyone throwing a multi punch combo of lefts and rights and moving forward is doing a WC straight blast. Wow. Someone forgot to tell all the boxers that have been using that since time immemorial that they were actually doing WC.

Oh but it is tough guy. Because in order to talk about the straight blast you have to be able to figure out what it is and what it looks like. The vid clip by Vitor Belfort doesn't carry the elements of the classic WC straightblast, not in fist position, not in knuckle orientation... but it does have everything to do with basic boxing 1's and 2's and good forward footwork.

What did you expect him to do... land a 1-2 and then stop?
Puhleeeeze. Use your head.

You call it stupid but you can hardly refute it. You either don't know enough about boxing and the staight blast to recognize the difference or like usual have your own agenda you're trying to forward. You started a thread on WC in MMA and someone posts a Vitor Belfort vid showing him using basic boxing skills and you rush to call it WC.

Classic Flashlock. I'll add this to my compendium of idiocy posted by you.

 

Now, now ladies and gents let's keep it all civil and above board or I'll be forced to get Louise to lock this thread, making her the bad guy in all of this.

You don't want that do you? Hmm? I thought not.

Now, play nice.

 

We'll have to agree to disagree on this one. If your point were that MMA could benefit from more chained punching (as a generic term), then I'd probably agree. But if we're getting style-specific about it, the fact that Belfort has never trained in wing chun matters. Again, I think it's a logical application of what he has trained in to the environment he competes in.

No, but I wasn't learning MMA. If I had been, it would have made perfect sense. Think about the defining characteristic of MMA. Mixed modes of combat. So there's a built in understanding that ranges are going to change frequently and dramatically. For Belfort, who's strength is BJJ, that means going from a longer range to a shorter range. Explosively.

Now, if I'm Belfort and I know I need to get to grappling range without getting my head taken off, then I know I want to punch my way in. It doesn't take familiarity with another style to look at my boxing repetoire and say "if I just keep doing this as I move forward, I'm going to either catch him or keep him busy long enough that he runs out of room to backpedal." And then he gets into grappling range.

That's the thing. Style is the cart. The horse is the concrete, observable situation. The grappler needs to "safely" close distance. And with the tools at his disposal, that's the most logical way to do it.

You might, yeah. But few pro fighters are going to gamble a win on "might."

Nah, I missed it.

I don't think that's a question of the specific styles involved. I think that's a question of the ability to integrate those styles. Having a tremendous grasp of muay thai and of BJJ is less helpful than having a tremendous grasp of the transition points from muay thai to BJJ. Where does your weight need to be in that round kick to make a quick shoot afterward? That sort of thing.

I don't think the issue is specialized technique. I think the issue is making the seams between styles disappear. That's the hard part. Vunak talks about that a bit too.

It's not really vicious. The MMA fighter has no incentive to do that if what they're doing is working. It's kinda incumbent on the wing chun guys to step up and show that their method works at least as well. They can't complain that nobody clamours to learn their stuff for MMA if they aren't willing to show (in a convincing manner) what benefit it offers. Particularly not when Belfort shows that it's not actually necessary to study wing chun to utilize a tactic like that.

Well, I'm not going to guess at the why. It's enough, really, to note that they haven't done it. But here's what I know from MMA types that I've met: Their respect is earned. By participation. If someone makes a respectable showing, other fighters will be perfectly happy to listen to them. But that respect isn't going to be given on faith alone.

In short: If someone specifically took the techniques of wing chun and trained them for that environment, I expect they could make a go of it. It wouldn't look like wing chun now, precisely. Just as Belfort doesn't look like a textbook boxer. But the core could probably translate.



Stuart