Shotokan/Shotokai

Hey guys! In need of a bit of advice here.

I'm a 1st kyu in seiki-juku karate and am off to university in October and I want to stick with my training. But here is the dilemma: there are two karate clubs in the university, shotokan and shotokai. I was going to use the student laziness factor to decide, but they are both on the same site . Sooo...what I want to know is: what are the major differences between them and, considering my current style, which would be my best choice?

 

have no idea what seiki-juku karate actually is. maybe someone else here knows the style and could tell you about similarities of seiki-juku and shotokan/shotokai. have practiced shotokan before and had classmate that had done both styles. this is what he said (not exact quote just context).

that at one time shotokan and shotokai were the same thing. and some of the shotokan practioners broke off from style over policies of the jka that governs shotokan. the shotokai still uses the taikyoku and ten-no-kata which shotokan no longer does. not sure about that one because our shotokan class did teach taikyoku yet not ten-no-kata. know that shotokai uses higher (more upright) stances than shotokan and does a few techniques slightly different. otherwise dont remember any differences. think he said they were mostly the same.

 

Shotokan spar, shotokai don't believe in it. That was the basic rift within the JKA. All the young bucks were wanting to do free-sparring and all the old guard thought it was a bad practice. So they went their separate ways. Consequently, the shotokai practice karate that's closer to pre-war Japanese karate, the JKA stylists practice more sporting 1950s karate (that's not sporting in the "American Sport Karate" sense, just more competitive).

Where are you going to uni? I might have come across the shotokan club at some point and might be able to give you an idea what they're like.

Edit: by "JKA" I don't necessarily mean clubs that are part of the JKA now, but most shotokan clubs have their roots in the JKA.

 

Thanks! I'll probably go with shotokan then.

I'll be at Durham, by the way - any info would be great!

 

Durham? I dont know about the karate there, but I think MAPer Alexander is there so he may be able to help.

I'm in the Durham area outside of term time (at uni in Huddersfield)

 

Durham Uni KC is a very high standard. It's part of the KUGB so will be tough, dynamic karate.

I always considered Shotokan to be a young'uns persute and Shotokai for the oldies ...... might be VERY VERY wrong!!!!!

Give it a go .....

There's also a Shorinji Kempo club at Durham uni IIRC

Always fancied doing a bit of that .....

http://www.dur.ac.uk/shorinji.kempo/

 

Hi,

I think I'm one of the few people who has any experience of all three styles, though I only did a 1 day course with Harada and my partner does shotokai, so I get to watch the classes and compare notes. I did shotokan while at Uni.

I am told the Durham Uni branch of the KDS is "alright, but not the BEST one in the association".

The shotokan club has a good reputation by the sounds of it. Katas are very different to the Seiki Juku ones, being very snappy. Zenkutsu dachi works differently too, seiki juku breaks stance before moving, shotokan has pull-push use of legs to move. Anyway you'd get to compete in the BUSA Championships. And in Seiki Juku you don't often get to compete outside, so it'd be great experience...

Shotokai has no sparring, no competition at all. You'll spend months learning to walk properly and swinging your arms back and forth. Ifyou like kicking... they don't seem to do any kicks above waist level. You'll develop amazingly strong stances though, you'll be hard to tip over and your punches will be fantastically well connected.

Ooh, and my partner who is at their Summer School this week has complained bitterly this evening about having to do taikiyoku shodan (sono ichi) continuously for half an hour every day this week.

My 2 pence worth: If you're sporty, do shotokan. If you're a bit nerdy and extremely patient do shotokai!

 

Lets get a few things straight. Shotokan and shotokai differ in more ways than the things said above. Shotokai uses relaxed and flowing movements to generate power as opposed to sharp snappy movements used in shotokan. Also Shotokai does spar, they just dont compete as it goes against Funakoshi's philosophy of there is no win or lose in karate.

 

Do they actually do freestyle sparring in addition to partner drills?

 

They do something called "named attack sparring", not sure what that actually means but it's not points sparring.

Yes, they do have very flowing movements compared to shotokan, but does not seem significantly more or less flowing than seiki-juku.

Shotokai katas are a lot simpler than the seiki-juku ones.

 

It will of course vary from dojo to dojo, but for the most part, they will do free sparring at the higher kyu grades. And they believe in the hit full power or dont hit at all philosophy as well.


Edit:

Heres Shotokai's version of kata Empi: [ame="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=V3qcalTEp5A&mode=related&search="]SHOTOKAI KARATE-DO KATA: EMPI - YouTube[/ame]

and heres Shotokan's Empi: [ame]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gySCFjtevfY[/ame]

As you can see, Shotokai's empi, is much more "slidey" you could say, not as rooted as shotokan. Cant really tell you the pros or cons of the two versions. But there is definitely a difference.

 

I remember Harada shihan viewing the aikido training under Nakazono shihan in the early seventies. As an aikidoka I can see the taisabaki (body movement and evasion) from aikido also many aikido throws.It looks to me that many aikido principles have been used in the creation of shotkai.

regards koyo

 

I couldn't find a better shotokai empi video, but here's a shotokan one that isn't filmed from a million miles away, from behind and obscured by a net: [ame="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=A3pXTMz2Wdw"]Enpi - YouTube[/ame]

 

Harada was heavily influenced by his main teacher Egami who had trained with Inoue and had also been one of Funakoshi's longstanding students. I'm pretty sure that either Egami or Harada (or both) had spent time training with Ueshiba, but I can't find a reputable source to hand to verify this at present.

Harada took lessons under Funakoshi when he was an old man and acted as his driver to classes. So if you are looking for something closer to the 'source' then Shotokai has the best lineage both in terms of what they teach and in terms of who is in the UK teaching.

 

To my knowledge Harada shihan accompanied Tada shihan (both karateka) to see O Sensei demonstrate aikido. Tada shihan stayed and went on to be a powerfull aikidoka and was responsible for taking aikido to Germany.
I attended a number of Harada's classes when he was developing shotokai. I hated it when he viewed the aikido classes since the shihan taking the aikido class would often demonstrate the effectiveness of aikido for him using me as uke.
I think the most potent principle from aikido that can be seen in shotokai is the mobility and the use of irrimi (entering triangularly)
Having friends who are high grades in shotokan and shotokai I think that at their level there is little difference.


regards koyo

Harada shihan executing irrimi. Behind him the kamiza is O Sensei Ueshiba of aikido,

 

Thanks Koyo. My point was that ideas linked to Aiki had long been a part of Shotokai and are not just something that Harada has bought into the art.

Is that Ken Waight as his uke?

 

Yes that is Ken Waight. Nice guy used to see him at the Grange farm seminars many years ago where aikido,karate.judo and kendo all mixed and trained together.

regards koyo

 

I haven't actually ever met the guy - I just recognised him from past pictures. I guess that means he must now be famous.

I have heard good things about him though - but admitedly never from anyone I've actually trained with.

 

Last I heard he had moved to France and was involved in an esoteric spiritual "advancement" of karate.With an emphasis on personal developement and enlightenment through body and mind unification. I tend to be more pragmatic in my approach to martial arts however I saw his early training under Harada and it was intense to the point of cruelty.

below two practisioners of this new art (I do not recall the name)

regards koyo