All explanation/arguments about the sine wavee are welcome. BUt my main questions are A)How many of you TKD boys do it? B)Why do you think it is better/worse than hip twist? CWhy does it not make ur stnce week? D)Can you do it form an L stance? Thanks Jamie
Ah yes, .... alll this "bobbing up & down" is it at all necessary?! This `stepping motion' , knee spring or up/down motion causes the body to move in a "sine wave" (Hwaldung Pahdo) resulting in the whole body being involved at the moment of impact, in blocking or attacking. This techniques is not just used for hand-techniques but is also used in kicking techniques as well. I do believe ITF-stylists tend to incorporate more of a sine wave in their execution of technique than do WTF-stylists. The belief is that sine waving allows for greater power by utilising your body mass effectively and permits greater control over movements. The Sine wave is (partly) created by effective use of the leg muscles which is also known as I mentioned early on, "knee spring". At the beginning of a technique you "drop" your body weight, and then increase your height before dropping again towards the end of the technique. I tend to sometimes use a bit of sine wave in order to drop my body weight at the point of impact, once my foot hits the ground. adding a hip twist, you can generate a fair amount of power... To understand this you really need to be able to see it performed. And I have a link with TKD forms practised by the ITU ... http://www.taekwondo.to/patterns.htm From what I was told... (someone I am sure will correct me if I'm wrong), this movement was taken from Tai Chi .
Thanks. I have seen it in practice in compos , destruction etc And i'm pretty sure Tai chi people do use their entire body in a similar priciple but do it in a different way. (IE fa jing puching etc whihc is more like a hip twist). I'm pretty sure they don't lift their rear heel. BTW all the above is uncertain just form what i've read and been told. Thanks KC But can you do it form a L stane?
We are taught to use both for particular uses. Sine wave is used in many foward moving techniques, where as hip twist is used in techniques as your turn e.g. first move in Chon-Ji for you ITFers. I cant really go into details, but it is quite self explanatory.
Being more science orientated, I can see the physics behind how the sine wave motion generates its power. It comes from (technically) the whole body mass rising up and dropping down into the movement. Say it was a punch..force = MASSxACCELERATION. now keeping acceleration constant, say you just punched from you arm. Youd get the mass of your arm only hence the force to the target area is reduced. However if you rise with your body first and drop into the punch with the whole body, technically yor whole body mass is transmitted through tthe punch and you end up with more force on that target area. Using the hip twist, when you havent really mastered it, i think limits your power as you are not utilising your whole body. But at our school we learn a combination of the 2. the rise and fall during the movements as a sine wave, and at the end of every movement, a snap in every moving joint to generate that extra bit of power as your being the movement to an end and go to the next movement.
"technically yor whole body mass is transmitted through the punch " except for the mass supported by your legs, that is. if you want ALL your weight into it, you would have to leave the floor with both feet. If you attack has a downward angle you can get some benefit from gravity even while standing on the floor. If your attack is horizontal or upward gravtiy will not help. However you can still get more of your mass into the strike the way you describe (and other ways too).
well, one of the black belts does exactly that ( im my class) as he goes up in the sine wave, he almost 'jumps' off the floor. it is hard to explain, but i have copied it to great effect. so technically i am utilising all my body weight.
Interesting ara. BUt as he is "jumping" and may be utilising all his body weight is he not extremly vaulnerable. And wouldn't all this take a very long time do? and telegraph every movement that used it.
as i said its hard to explain. its very, very subtle. I only noticed after watching him many times doing high level patterns. he is still in contact with the floor, but only barely. as he rises up and falls down again, you can tell his movements are powerful as his whole body seems to decend into it. I will try to come up with a good explaination, but at the moment im too tired from uni to think of the right words
Wing Chun uses the concept without all the bobbing up and down. The next time you are watching baseball and they do a slow-mo replay of somebody hitting a home run you will notice the batter sinking into the swing. I have a background that includes Muay Thai, Savate, JKD, etc., and I am very function oriented, but it hurts me to watch the ITF forms done this way. I'm sorry, but these are far and away my favorite forms and so much of their beauty is lost. I'll continue to do them the old way. When I'm hitting real targets I use the concept.
Yes you can do sine wave in L-stance. bending at the knees. If you can check out the first two moves of won hyo (green belt pattern) the second move is a inward knife hard strike in L stance.
Infact won hyo is a good example. Start from ready stance A. Drop down to the L stance and double outer forearm block. Rise up and drop doing the inward knifehand. Rise up again and drop as you do the fixed stance side punch. The 3 moves demonstrate the sine wave motion quite well. Hwa-rang also, with the first few movements.
Hi all, Hip Twist, as I really can't get on with the sine wave and I think that it slows the patterns down too much.
Hi Tosh, Interesting you say that because the UKTA down this way has completely dropped the sine wave. It's become a bit of a crusade for them. Is this not happening in Scotland as well? PUMA are especially big advocates of it. Which is funny because at one point hip twist was the ONLY way to go. I remember being lectured that I didn't need to know any other martial arts because the TKD I was being taught was the only art I needed to know. You can imagine how appalled I felt as I saw other students lapping this up.
Having tried performing patterns with the sine wave and watched a number of people perform them correctly, I find that the percieved effort behind them is very low. Almost like Tai Chi TKD. Does anyone else find this? I'm usually breathless after a couple of patterns but have been left cold when doing sine. Is this me or does anyone else get this?
Any info on schools/instructors? I was at the 3 day course/ and grading last weekend. The UKTA Masters council was all in attendence pulling students up for incorrect sine wave. Grandmaster Rhee regulalry still makes us sit cross legged and punch to emphasize since wave occasionaly. Still v. interested in the schools, crusade you say? *Prepares some looting equipment*
