In aiki ken all of the movements are executed from sankaku ho (triangular posture) Is this common in western swordsmanship. My main interest in swordsmanship is the application of sword principles to unarmed techniques. Below is a photograph of Irrimi nage a classic aikido technique done with a sword in hand to emphasis the kessa cut to unbalance and the shomen cut to throw. I look forward to your replies. regards koyo
Hi Koyo, Perhaps we should note that sankaku-ho is the default striking posture. The Yagyu 28 move sword kata that our aiki school (allegedly from Ueshiba) does starts ina completely neutral position: the first move is stepping up feet together, presentign a small target to the enemy (shomen) and drawing the sword. Similarly, there is a happo no kamae stance in the middle of the kata: both arms outstretched ina neutral (square stance), the sword in the right hand parallel to the ground, to signify (practice?!!) zanshin and indeed mushin before the next 'attack'. My sensei would always stress that any aiki tech should be startable from any position, and would often get us to practice in a neutral stance before stepping off/in in a triangle step. This is why stepping is always said to be triangular but why Ueshiba liked the symbolism of the zen sign of the square, triangle and circle so much: the starting base position being the square. As Upyu mentioned (I think) on another thread there are still some people who train a lot of kibadachi from a daito-ryu perspective and in Ueshiba's earlier aiki distillations maybe this is easier to see. Anyway, I'll echo your question to the western swordsmen: do you have default stance? Do you have an 'awareness' position and then a default striking stance? Do you have any concept of zanshin (if you need zanshin further explaining, pls don't hesitate to ask... Koyo! )?
First of, I'm not entirely sure I understand what is meant by "triangular posture", so it's difficult for me to say anything on that one, unless you elaborate for ignorant me... After reading mr.Punch's text, I suspect that the triangular posture is that you don't put your feet on the linear axis towards the enemy, but have some width between your feet; like your shoulderwidth, for instance. That is the only posture in fiore (italian longsword; 1410); he's never linear. He allways moves in squares with weight 50-50%, 75 - 25% weight or 25-75% weight distribution between the feet (allthough he sometimes work with what we call extended steps, and even crossing of the feet in order to traverse; I've attended one bo-lesson in Shinto Ryu Kenjutsu (???), and noted that they had sidesteps in order to traverse off the line that look exactly like in Fiore In the WMA's, you have both gathering-steps and passing-steps, depending on which leg you have in front, and which leg you want to have in front after completing your move. Is this what you wanted to know, or am I way off here? Feet; yes, body; no. The way you hold your sword depends on what you want to lure your enemy into, on distance to the target and on your personal preferences (how tall are you, how strong are you, how fast are you, etc) I'm not sure if I understand this question. We have a couple of them; I think... The manuals I've been involved in, mentions different types of stances. In Fiore, he talks about "stabile" and "instabile"; some stances are for planning, and some stances are mid-strike positions, to indicate the line the weapon should take, or stances that you end up in, but you don't want to begin in. Explain, pleace
...just pasting something the old wolf typed in his thread on korean and japaneese swordmanship: "And a note about the discussions on "center line". It is very true that you must guard your own center line, but you don't have to attack your opponents. In a stream, water goes around the stones it can not move. (third form in MooSaDo)" This is fun to read. Fiore never goes around the opponents centerline, as he deems it too risky, whereas the germans have a coupple of techniques where you go around the centre, and gamble on the opponent to follow your blade, rather than going for your head. -so the european masters didn't find a common ground on this topic either
The Germans very often go around the opponent's centre line while protecting their own. The Zornhau done with a double step/triangle step will often strike an opponent doing a simple step, even if he does an oberhau (descending strike), while keeping the guy doing the Zornhau safe. It's not so much that we gamble on him following the blade, we just step and strike in such a way that he cannot ignore the counterattack. I'd rather he just followed through and allowed me to hit him straight from the Zornhau, but people have a hard time commiting suicide. If he does a Zornhau with a double step as well, we end up in a bind, and then the fun begins. The bind is where German practicioners tend to be the most comfortable. It's nice to have so many swordsmen around! Best regards, -Mark
Hi guys To answer Mr Punches request. Zanshin in an "unconcerned awareness" before during and after conflict. If one is careless and loses his concentration for an instant this is a loss of zanshin. If one is angry or afraid this effects his zanshin not allowing him to see clearly. Zanshin is not only a "state" of mind bur permeates the body as well. This is difficult to explain but I am sure you have experienced it. Too often mystical significance is given to japanese sword principles where I feel they should not exist. Ki for instance simply means intent and fighting spirit to me. Zanshin means constantly alert. The triangular posture may be seen in the exit from the technique shown in the first post. The feet are kept close enough to offer maximum mobility. Any elongated posture that is "held" for any legth of time is avoided since it curtails our mobility. Mr Punch The zen kamae you speak of are to my understanding ment to intimidate the opponent by stating this IS a fight to the death. To a lesser extent (if you can use the word lesser relative to CHiba shihan) this can be seen in the clip os Chiba shihan demonstrating aiki ken while holding the sword over his shoulder like an umbrella. Not at all a practical kamae but intimidating non the less. regards koyo Only I would attempt to "draw" zanshin
Sigmund Ringeck said that "a despondent heart will be defeated regardless of all skill". Also, it is said that if you frighten easily, you should not learn to fence. Same idea. When in the guard Longpoint using the Sprechfenster techniques we are told to "stand blithely and look at his manner, and calmly await what he might try against you".[/QUOTE] Best regards, -Mark
Chiba Shihan. I had a friend (the bear) post this here from the other thread so that if I mention Chiba shihan you can have a look.For those who don't know that's me he is bouncing. regards koyo [ame="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ij5dlGmkndE"]Sensei Chiba Aiki Ken Demo - YouTube[/ame]
EXAMPLE Chris has just executed a technique and maintains ZANSHIN closing in on the opponent to execute a strike or throw as he rises. Exiting the initial technique Chris is in SANKAKU HO triangular posture
First off, I'm not saying that german is risky and italian is safe; far from it.The technique you describe here is not what I call "going around the centre", as you by traversing sideways turns your centreline sideways, and is still covering while striking (that's why it's called a meisterhau, isn't it? I thought all meisterhaus were both covers and attacks). The technique I describe, is when you thrust/cut towards the enemy, he parries, by putting up his sword in Frontale/kron, you go "around the centre" into a sort of horizontal ochs to thrust his face, gambling on him to follow your blade, and go even further of his centre, "chasing your blade", so that you eventually can enter in close-play, if your thrust is parried, rather than him going for your now-unprotected centre, ensuring a doubblekill. My point was merely that this one technique is shown in german; perhaps as the exception of the rule, whereas it's not shown in Fiore (he do blade-grabs instead, perhaps even more risky?). So there is one difference beween "italian" and "german" swordplay, just as this debate seems to have been going on in asia as well, if I read the EMA'ers posts correctly.
In Fiore stepping, I was taught that you had comitted and uncomitted gather-steps + false-steps. A falce-step, is when you pass you feet, making it look like you're moving forewards, to trigger a reaction from the opponent. In an uncomitted gather, you put your feet together, so you have an option to alter your intent, whereas in an uncomitted gather, you basically leaps forewards/sideways. If you by triangular means that the systems incorporates movement in all directions rather than on a linear axis, then triangulation is the basic of WMA, and linear movement the exeption (the problem is to be able to do it in freesparring :bang: ) Further; fiore have some "weird" stances, where his feet are facing away from the opponent. It works wery well on some distance, and it allso works wonders for traversing, allthough it's a little slow. Perhaps not intimidation, rather luring/rusing the enemy into traps, fiores stances exposes some "weak spots" in the stance, baiting the enemy into attacking theese areas.
Hi guys So much in your exchanges that I do not know where to start. So I shall keep this one simple."Weak spots" In aiki ken are called SUKI. They are openings in the kamae be they physical or in the opponent's fighting spirit.As for baiting we leave an "opening" deliberately to draw the attack to thiat area. It is most difficult to achieve JODAN KAMAE (that posture with the sword held above the head) against an experienced swordsman ,when you are within striking distance. As you raise you leave an opening in CHUDAN (middle area) and shall receive a thrust. Knowing this we shall give the impresion that we are about to raise the sword and when he thrusts we enter to the side and cut ,strike or supress.David shows good ZANSHIN by attacking the SUKI as it "emerges".If you can see it, it is too late. As for ASHI SABAKI foot movement almost anything which does not "root" us to the ground or "unbalance our centre" is allowed such as leaping "crow hopping" small numerous steps side stepping etc. Mr Punch I shall post on the square triangle and circle principles soon. regards koyo SUKI
In the German system, we have certain strikes that "break" certain guards. Sometimes we leave an opening, but it is preferable to strike first, in order to control the tempo of the fight, and force the opponent to defend. Using the master strikes means that it is very hard to be directly countered in doing so, and a bind can easily result. Thus one can attack first in safety. That is not so often done by most German stylists I know, but we generally keep our guards moving. Same here, mostly. Have good balance, be able to move quickly. Good advice for any MA. Best regards, -Mark
Hi langenswert I am so glad that you have posted a retisance to using suki to draw an attack prefaring the master strikes. Since offering suki IS a part of aiki ken I have trained in this concept. However when training with high grades who have the instinct to strike immediately ANY suki that is offered is attacked with such determination and speed that they may only be offered to one of little experience. This being the case the use of master strikes is of course the best avenue. PLUS it obeys a basic principle. Attack at all times and dominate the spirit of the opponent. Seams we are certainly of the one mind here. My thanks Koyo EDit another DVD worth a look. The Duellists by Ridley Scott. Example If I were to offer this kamae (waki kamae) to the likes of shihan Kincaid or shihan Hepburn.I would be cut to pieces.
Hi Mr Punch I had to give a paper in aikido to pass my fukushidoin test.I chose the principles of the square triangle and circle. Basically the square represents natural posture which must be balanced with the mind and body as one. Our everyday natural posture is our "fighting" posture.Alert and relaxed.Well balanced (square) Entering into conflict we assume the sankaku ho which is the triAngular posture which at the instant of musubi (contact) sharpens to become hiti emi.All attacks and defences which should be executed as on are made from the sankaku ho kamae. (triangle) Control by throws or pins are executed by causing the attacker to turn spin or spiral around us. (circle) Eventually ALL techniques have the principle of the square triangle and circle within them.Even a technique where you may seam to hold your ground and cut directly through the attacker. Saito shihan said the secrets of aikido lie in the triangles. I mentioned this to Sekiya shihan adding that this ment there are no circular movements. He said there are circles but the circles have no diameter.I kind of get that!!! regards koyo Hi guys In all hand techniques we attack kuzushi weak points of balance in the attacker. While any master cut shall finish the confrontation, do western swordsmen emphasise attacking the balance during a sword exchange as much as we do. Triangle circle square
Indeed. It is better to put fear into the heart of your opponent than wait for him to gain the courage to attack, or worse yet, give him the time to come up with a good plan. If one is lucky, a swift first attack will draw a flinch response, and therefor a bad parry, meaning one that offers no immediate counterattack. If that happens, one simply disengages one's own blade before contact and thrusts to another opening with impunity. Sometimes I do leave an opening on purpose, to see how I can deal with an opponent who strikes first. The German manuals do say how to leave openings as well. My favourite is to stand in Alber and await a Sheitelhau to break the guard. Then I displace in Kron (Crown: point and cross angled up) to catch the strike into my crossguard, above my head. Then I close under both swords to grapple. Fun stuff, but dangerous. Either that, or I strike horizontally from Kron with the back edge to the opponent's head. The thing about Kron is that it offers no immediate threat, but excellent follow-ups. Indeed. Against experienced swordsmen, taking a guard and leaving an opening is like a game of chess... will he use the Master Strike to break my guard? Does he know what one can do from any bind that might result? If he does a simple strike, can he deal with my counterthrust (absetzen)? Is he willing to close to grappling range? How good is his winding? In sparring, that's a good exercise, but in a real fight hit first, hard, fast and safe. See where you are once the swords cross and work from there, provided he's not already dead. I'll definitely check it out. Ah, the good ol' Tail Guard. The Germans have Nebenhut which is similar to Waki/Tail: Take a diagonal descending strike from the right and let it go all the way down, leaving your back edge facing the opponent, and there it is. I once used Nebenhut to disarm an experienced Kendoka in a friendly sparring match. That was fun. He also enjoyed seeing those guards in action, which Kendoka generally don't use often. Sometimes I like to use those low, open guards just to see what I can do from there. Best regards, -Mark
Thanks for the square, triangle and circle description Koyo. That's exactly what I was taught. And that was more the squared stance that I was talking about as shizentai: the exact definition of shizentai being 'natural body' less than a stance. That was my point. Sankaku ho (triangle step) is the default striking step, whereas the default standing/walking 'stance' is a squared, natural, relaxed but 'hatteiru' attitude. The 'come and get it!' stance in the sword kata is as you say a way of exaggerating the shizentai to leave obvious suki.
Hi folks After an exchange with Langenswert wherein the importance of "master cuts" were discussed I decided to look at these at tonight's session. One other principle came to mind, that of CHIKARA which is an instant "explosion" of power done "where you stand" no evasion simply a direct " master cut" straight through the opponent. We were training in the kumi tachi five short sword katas intended to teach sword principles in a manner that they can be applied empty handed. These involve exchanges of cuts and thrusts, counters and controls. I found that at any time I could simply explode from whatever position I found myself and execute a master cut which would strike directly through the attack or defence that my opponent was mounting.I think that we unconciously adopt a rythm in combat even when we are attempting to break that rythm some kind of contact remains. Using chikara and master cuts I seamed to "step outside" that contact and become for an instant faster stronger and more immediate than the attacker. Sorry to sound so mystical but it was a most interesting practice. I always tend to use what I have gleaned from others to provide a foremat for my training. below a chikara hand technique done "where I stand" directly through the attacker. regards koyo
The explosiveness is very important. A fast yet controlled attack is more likely to draw a flinch response, and is harder to counter, for obvious reasons. A physiotherapist gave me some simple stretches to improve the explosiveness of my legs which have helpd greatly. Basically, a good lunge type stretch and stretching the Achilles tendon help with this explosive movement. Sometimes the Master Cuts can be done without footwork, but I much prefer the triangle step to void my body in case the strike fails to counter correctly. That being said, I'm much more of a "close in and hit the guy" type of fighter. My triangle steps take me towards my opponent, not away, unless I'm doing a Krump, which works well when one steps more sideways away from the incoming blow. But I use a Krump to close as well. Some rapier techniques are done without footwork, FWIW. Simply taking the opponent's point offline while impaling him yourself. Good stuff. Were you using German Master Cuts or the equvalent (if there are any) in Aikido? Just curious. Best regards, -Mark
Hi Langenswert. For your information. In aiki ken we perform thousands, many thousands , of SUBURI.These are solo sword cuts the intention is to integrate KI (fighting spirit) KEN (sword) TAI (body alignment) as one immediate action.One hundred cuts performed in this manner is worth more than a thousand performed mearly with strength. We tend to concentrate on just three cuts. One directly down on to the centre of the head. SHOMEN and to the side of the head YOKOMEN and a thrust TSUKE to the throat or abdomen.(there other cuts to the leg wrist forearm etc) The three "killing" cuts may be called the master cuts.They are executed down or out from our centreline therby providing protection even as we strike. They use the minimum of movement therfore can be executed "explosively" The shomen cut is the one I was employing at the session in my previous post. I am reminded of Sekiya shihan who was a master of Kashima and Katori shinto ryu swordsmanship. He told me that as time passes in your training everything becomes "smaller" as in smaller movement "smaller" timing and immediate action. regards koyo Otake Ritsuke of the Katori shinto ryu cutting shomen Suburi cuts from head to hip and stops in CHUDAN KAMAE (middle posture) QUESTION The japanese sword cuts on the "pull or push" so the body (of the swordsman) is in motion as we strike. We are often told not to "strike from a platform" if it can be avoided. You will have seen kendoka cutting and " continuing through" Is this common in western sword.
