New Genbukan Document

Discussion in 'Ninjutsu' started by Fudo-shin, May 9, 2007.

  1. Fudo-shin

    Fudo-shin Valued Member

  2. EWBell

    EWBell Valued Member

    Hodges Renshi,

    Thank you for posting this. This subject appears to have caused much division in practioners of ninpo, and hopefully this new statement from Tanemura Soke will help end this.


    Sincerely,

    Eric Bell
     
  3. K¡a¡

    K¡a¡ Valued Member

    Hmmm. what does it say, i can't seem to load it on my computer.
    :(
     
  4. Koyoku

    Koyoku I enjoy pudding!

    Dear Hodges Renshi,

    thank you for posting this. I am happy Soke has went public with this.

    Sadly I await the false revisions from trouble makers with no clue, but with an axe to grind..

    Sincerely,
     
  5. fire&steel

    fire&steel Valued Member

    Seems like the first axe is being ground with your post :Angel:
     
  6. Keikai

    Keikai Banned Banned

    What you mean is you are happy your soke went public with HIS side of the story :rolleyes:

    Questions, who was the problem student and why did Hatsumi have to deal with him?
     
  7. Big Will

    Big Will Ninpô Ikkan

    Very interesting indeed. :)

    But like Keikai said, it is just one side of the story, no matter how we look at it.

    And for the record, the letter or resignation that was posted there doesn't make any difference at all does it? Since "the documents included" that explain why he left are not made public, and *may* (or *may not*) differ from what was written in the pdf as the main reason.

    But it's still interesting :D
     
  8. Victoria

    Victoria Pretzel In Training

    I agree.

    So where's the letter been for the last 23 years? And why if Tanemura is so concerned about clearing up matters has he not cleared things up sooner?

    Just wondering :)
     
  9. Big Will

    Big Will Ninpô Ikkan

    Well in all fairness, Tanemura did write why - it was a personal matter and he wanted to leave it at that. It's a good reason, in my opinion. :) And our sôke hasn't exactly gone public with his side either (right?), so...
     
  10. Victoria

    Victoria Pretzel In Training

    Yes he did say that which I read. And I agree a personal matter is more than enough reason alone, if that is the case.
    But I still ask a) that if he is concerned enough to clear it up, why not until now. And b) why, if it was a personal matter, is it not so much of one now?

    (Unfortunately I can't find how copy and quote from PDF....)
     
  11. llong

    llong Valued Member

    Seems reasonable, and respectful.
     
  12. poryu

    poryu Valued Member

    HI

    I dont see what this document will gain for either Tanemura or Hatsumi.

    We all know he resigned and producing a copy of the letter just tells us something we all know already. After all we have known he resigned back in the 1980's

    I doubt it will cause any shock waves as the actual facts contained in the other pages are still kept secret.

    Will it stop rumours - I doubt it I think it will just generate more from those who know nothing as it has always been in the past.

    He isnt the first to leave the Bujinkan and he wont be the last. Just as many have quit the Genbukan and also the Jinenkan.

    Life goes on.
     
  13. bencole

    bencole Valued Member

    Translation: The "problem" was so egregious that the grandmaster of the art stepped in and demanded the student's resignation. The teacher of the student took the grandmaster's action as a impeachment of his own role/power/responsibility and resigned....

    This isn't the entire story, clearly.

    Given how Hatsumi-sensei is notoriously "no touch" on pretty much anything in the Bujinkan, it must have been *PRETTY SERIOUS* if Soke had usurped Tanemura and stepped in personally. Think about it, given the constant threads about how Hatsumi-sensei allows anything and everything in the Bujinkan.

    Naturally, the question then begs: "Why didn't Mr. Tanemura step in before Hatsumi-sensei had to?"

    Sounds like a childish turf war to me, which the grandmaster *ALWAYS* wins, and pretty much shows that Mr. Tanemura valued the control of his own students over his relationship with his teacher.

    Moreover, it ignores the fact that Mr. Tanemura had expressed his interest in leaving much earlier to his dojo-mates, saying, "I'm going to break away after I get sufficiently high rank from Hatsumi-sensei."

    Don't believe it? Ask the Japanese who were training at the time with him.

    Maybe Hatsumi-sensei knew of this planned break and wanted to "test" Mr. Tanemura's loyalty, given that it already had been compromised via Mr. Tanemura's own mouth.

    Alas, I do not think we will ever know the *FULL* truth. People on either side will claim "politics" and buckle down with their own version of history.

    What we *DO* know is that Mr. Tanemura was so rude as to get into a physical confrontation at the funeral of Hatsumi-sensei's mother. :shakehead:

    We also know that Mr. Tanemura did the unthinkable in Japanese society and scared the bu-Jesus out of the widow of Takamatsu, by showing up at her door and claiming that he was going to pursue "Takamatsu's true teachings" and sought Ms. Takamatsu's blessing. I'd tell such a strange policeman anything he wanted to hear to get him out of my house as quickly as possible, and hope he never came back! LOL! :rolleyes:

    These two actions alone tell *ME* all I need to know about the man as a "student," and where he is willing to go as a member of Japanese society.

    Your mileage may differ.

    -ben
     
  14. Katsujin-ken

    Katsujin-ken Valued Member

    Greetings Mr. Cole,

    I believe you have the facts skewed on this one (though some of the grammar in Tanemura Soke's letter might have sounded like the conclusion you drew). In actuality, what happened was that the student in question, after having been made to resign and leave Tanemura Soke's dojo, then went to Hatsumi Sensei and requested to train with him, to which Hatsumi Sensei consented. This action constituted a violation of proper manners and protocol, because in these kinds of circumstances, such a problem student would likely not be accepted by most teachers, much less their former teacher's teacher. Thus, the disagreement with this individual going behind Tanemura Soke's back to train with Hatsumi Sensei.

    Regarding Tanemura Soke supposedly scaring Mrs. Tane Takamatsu, it would be of interest to you to read the letter of encouragement she sent Tanemura Soke regarding the writing of his book, Hiden Ninpo ("Ninpo Secrets"), p. 10. I highly doubt you have read the book or plan on doing so, but if you wish to read the letter portion in question, by all means let me know. I can be sure of this much, Mrs. Takamatsu wouldn't have gone out of her way to endorse Tanemura Soke's writing efforts if there wasn't real trust there.

    As I am just a student (aren't we all?), there are things which, frankly, don't concern me as I am not party to them, they are in the past, and therefore have no direct bearing on my present and future progress in these arts. I will continue to train, thankful for the blessings I've been given, and I can only wish that others would likewise have that same heart, regardless of affiliation.
     
  15. bujingodai

    bujingodai Retired Supporter

    That was a really great answer, and thank you I was wondering about Hatsumi taking care of the student as meaning the other way as well.

    Too which I agreed with Ben that if Hatsumi had to make issue with something that needed to be done it would have been ego. However with it being him taking a student under his wing that had been released from Tanuemera then that would be in bad form I would think.
    IMO of course.

    Since Tanumeura Sensei wishes this public now, who is the student. Can their opinion and relation to the story be asked for so all sides are there?. Is this person still training?
     
  16. bujingodai

    bujingodai Retired Supporter

    I would also like to explore the violence at the funeral, if that isa fact then that is also is pretty crappy form. Both sides seem like they may have piddled in each others corn flakes so to speak.
     
  17. shinsen

    shinsen Valued Member

    I don't see it as bad form at all. The Bujinkan is Hatsumi Sensei's organisation and he has the final say on who trains in it. If he decided that the individual concerned was able to continue training, then so be it. What is bad form is that Mr Tanemura could not accept the fact that his teacher didn't agree with him regarding this gentleman.
     
  18. bujingodai

    bujingodai Retired Supporter

    It is just in my opinion that that is bad form.
     
  19. garth

    garth Valued Member

    Katsujinken posted in reply to Ben Coles post

    Yes when i read that I also could see that Ben Might be reading more into the letter than was actually there.

    I believe (and I may be wrong here, as none of us were there) but what actually happened was that the student in question was Mr Tanemuras boss in the police force. His boss however was also a student of Mr Tanemura. Tanemuras boss gave Mr Tanemura a job which i believe was as a self defence instructor in the police force which took Mr Tanemura away from the streets. Although this sounds a very grandiose job it was as far as i am aware pretty much a desk bound job, and Mr Tanemura was not happy and in response Mr Tanemura stopped this student (His boss) training with him.

    This man (Tanemuras ex student/boss) then went to Dr Hatsumi and Dr Hatsumi let him train with him. As Ben Cole says

    So then Mr Tanemura goes to the funeral and guess what theres his boss. Hense big argument, fisticuffs, bit of a scuffle whtever ensues.

    Now Mr Tanemura has a job he doesn't like, a boss who is laughing at him, and a not too good relationship with Dr Hatsumi and the Shihan. Hense the birth of Genbukan, although I do believe that possibly as Ben Cole says the breakaway was planned to happen.

    Katsujinken also posted
    Thats right, and not only that but Mr Tanemura was raising funds for Mrs Tane for her hospital stays through producing a poem on Niniku Seishin that was sold to Genbukan students (I have a copy). Mr Tanemura IIRC was also featured in Bufu magazine with Mr Tane in Hospital where she died. One can only hope that Dr Hatsumi was also helping his teachers wife during her last few years.

    Gary Arthur
     
  20. Senban

    Senban Banned Banned

    *raps on monitor for attention, clears throat*

    One of the biggest sources of friction on forums (especially in this Ninjutsu forum and especially given the politics that exist between certain organisations) can be the posting of claims without verifiable, checkable references to back them up. I'm talking about subjects such as hearsay, anecdote, conjecture and so forth. You can almost always spot such information as it starts with "I once heard" or "I think I may have read somewhere". You get the idea I'm sure.

    Therefore, can I ask that you all make every conceivable effort to provide suitable references for any claims you might make in the future? Claims made without references to back them up may end up being removed without warning if deemed necessary. If you are unable for some reason to provide references, it may be better to hold off from the debate until such time as you are able to do so. The subject at hand has the potential for creating a great deal of friction so please think twice about any posts you make on the subject.

    Thank you for your co-operation in this matter.
     
    Last edited: May 9, 2007

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