Greetings all, just wondering can anyone give me the entire lists of forms in the the Yang style curriculum? Greatly appreciated. Jin Lee
Depends where you train and who with. Standard HK Yang Family syllabus would be: Yang Chen Fu form Chong Chaun (long boxing form) Jian (Double edged sword) Dao (Broadsword) Spear Pole A wide range of pushing hands but to include horizontal circle single hand and double hand, double hand vertical circle, small circle, 3 Da Lu (four corner) pushing hand forms, wa po (3 step). A variety of peng pushing leading to freestyle and 'wall' training. 2 Man Form (introduced to the family by Chu Gin Soon and corrected by YSC) Application form (outlined in YSC red book).
We just call the 108/88/whatever "taijiquan." Then we have "chang quan," "taiji dao," "taiji jian," etc.. That's also how my friends from Beijing refer to it. When they say "taijiquan" they don't mean the art as a whole, they mean the long form. Master Ip used to say "taijiquan to build gongfu, chang quan to express gong fu."
Hi Dillon, and everyone else, I would appreciate some clarification re the above quote. My understanding has been that taijiquan, whether long, short, high, low, Yang, Zheng, Chen or "whatever" form, has numerous martial applications - in short, that one can learn to fight via a form of most - if not all - of the lineages. The quote from Master Ip strongly implies that taijiquan is more a developmental exercise which one must learn before learning to express gong fu. ? Furthermore, I found this at http://www.atlantamartialarts.com/styles/longfist.htm "The main characteristics of the long-style Chuan are expansiveness and gracefulness in posture and agility and speed in movement. "Chang Quan is more suitable to youngsters who can enhance strength, speed, agility, elasticity and endurance through exercise and practice. It helps develop the physique and teach the techniques and skills in offence and defense." It seems, at least according to some, that taijiquan is for anyone who is able to be graceful, and agile, whereas the fighting aspect is reserved for "youngsters". All comments welcome, LQ
Now, I'm pretty new at this, so don't give what I say here too much weight. I'm just gonna do my best to say it as I understand it. There are fighting applications in the taiji form (well, every move has numerous applications) but the form itself is designed more to teach proper structure, alingment, coordination and movement principles. It's good to have a clear understanding of applications of the movements in the form, but getting caught up solely in the form being a catalogue of moves is limiting. The form is to help build the body and movement that you'll need for the fighting. And the form contains the fighting, but the form alone will not teach fighting.
Generally speaking you learn taiji in layers, it's no good fighting if you don't have the basic tools, so first you learn to carry no excessive tension, to frame the body with correct postural alignment, to breathe properly, develop the right kind of mindsets, make the mind 'alive', aware and focused. Then you start to 'layer in' the skills from the exercises and activate the internal connections, this 'powers up' the form. Applications are as a result of inches of movement within the form and come from all parts of the body, the fighting applications are more free form 'ideas' that are experienced and eventually arrive spontaenously within push hands and combat. Over a period of time the mindset matures and CC develops aspects of those skills more dynamically. Aged people can still apply the ideas even if not in such a dramatic way as youngsters. Master Ip was saying that the YCF form develops those skills and from that base the CC expresses the martial aspect. Once the CC form is learned, you will never practice the YCF the same again, because your mind and body will be changed. The key is in the exercises, all of the forms and the push hands, each one is an essential part of the jigsaw, progress is not linear, but a kind of zig zag one part changes - so does the rest.
more questions when we're learning the long form is it more important to focus on getting the flow going or getting the form done correctly? also should every part of the body be relaxed? i find that the sole of my feet gets abit tense throughout the practice, how can i loosen them up? cheers
Hi Steve, I'm going to be "pedantic" for the benefit of those very new to taijiquan.....for those who may be learning a linked form, and now wondering if they have to learn a different/additional "CC form" in order to gain taijiquan fighting skills. The "CC form" IS the YCF (or whatever form one studies), but executed differently - that is, YCF executed with martial intent. Is this correct? Also, is the case with all lineages, or with only Master Ip? Thanks, LQ
No that's not correct, it's a different form, here is a link to Martin Gatter doing the CC form (sorry about the crap quality) [ame="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hqOPwAqySr0"]YouTube[/ame]
Hi Steve, You had posted the cirriculum, and listed the CC form after YCF, but I wasn't sure whether the CC form was completely different (I now know it is) or if it was a refinement of YCF. Thanks for clearing that up, and thanks for the link. LQ
Hi LQ, It does seem a little strange, doesn't it, that another form, or perhaps more accurately another art is being used to supplement the martial material of the lineage. And yet I have a book by Yang Chengfu where he demonstrates applications of his form, and YCF's famous student Zheng Manqing said: "Each of Taiji's postures has a particular application, just as every object casts a distinct shadow. Taiji practice that ignores practical application bestows health benefits that are artificial at best." Several other Yang lineages talk about having a specific additional Taiji fast form, from what I can gather, but I think that if your main "form" is not combat specific it should probably be changed until it is. If you practice movements that can't be done at full combat speed, your body is going to be awfully confused in the heat of battle. I think it was Bruce Lee who pointed out that your training needs to be literal, because no one ever won an olympic running medal just by practicing walking. I still think the guy was a genius.
Hi jkz, Yes, it does seem strange, to be honest. I was surprised to read that another form had to be learned for combat. I had suspected and hoped that at most, tweaks to YCF would be needed to make it applicable in a martial way. The CC form does look pretty dynamic and useful. I have "T'ai chi Family Touchstones: Yang Family Secret Transmissions", and there are applications given in that book. "Each of Taiji'q postures". Hmm. Well why not learn one posture at a time, along with applications, and then link them into one - just one - coherent and unchanging form. OR why not simply learn CC from the very start? After all, the same principles apply - they must. That makes sense to me. A lot of sense. I'm certainly fit enough, but I certainly can't perform YCF at full speed, because the form doesn't allow one to move "seemlessly". There are breaks in momentum and flow throughout YCF, at least as taught to me. That said, there are some sequences which can be performed at speed. Good point re training. What do other Yang stylists think about this? Do you feel that you can use your YCF form martially, or do you think that you need to learn another form for self-defense? Thanks for you comments, jkz, very interesting. LQ
Thanks LQ, Well that is largely how my lot train, but we do not aim to produce just one set form sequence. We have a general linked sequence, but it is only an example sequence, and we work a lot on single technique repetition because it creates some very useful additional transitions. This seems to have been a part of training once upon a time. In Sun Xikun's Bagua book from the 1930's, he lists a Yang style form that repeats quite a few more postures than those in the YCF "form" - giving greater opportunities to train both sides and with greater repetitions of key techniques. There is a lot in a linked form sequence if you can bring out the individual bits and explore them fully. Another practitioner called Xu Xuanping trained the techniques individually and strung them together in any order. Do things on both sides if you want - it doesn't do the Bagua and Xingyi folk any harm. We also train our main form at a variety of speeds and bring out different qualities as we see fit (e.g more emhasis on drilling strikes, elbows or kicks). I think the key is to think for yourself rather than getting stuck in orthodoxy. Ignore anything that doesn't make sense and train how you like - it's your body. Just my general advice.
No problem, but that doesn't mean that the YCF form isn't martial specific. The Yang Family exercises are martial specific, the YCF form is martial specific, the CC is, the Jian form is, the Dao form is, the 2 man form is, every part of every inch of every form is martial specific, each bit enhances the others and adds another piece to the jigsaw puzzle. Tomorrow I give a 'combat' taiji course to some doormen from Essex (who usually practice MMA), we won't get past 'grasp sparrows tail' from the YCF form in 4 hours of practical work but I guarantee they'll be very suprised From the moment you step into the kwoon, in Yang taiji, everything is martial specific, you just want to continually skill build, you can stick to individual postures or just one type of form but you'll find it difficult to increase your level of skill. I have senior instructor qualifications in several martial arts and they all start quite simply and build up in complexity the longer and harder you practice.
