Tai chi and the san shou angle - any thoughts ? Wim Demeere is a Wudang Tai Chi instructor and also coach of the Belgium San shou team. [ame="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Mk68WsIoAGg"]Tai Chi Chuan and Combat SanshouTechniques - YouTube[/ame] bagwork and san shou [ame="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fHXHjevN_KM"]Bagwork & Sanshou - YouTube[/ame] form [ame="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Paj2yIuqPm8&mode=related&search="]Tai Chi Chuan form - YouTube[/ame] More techs & stuff here: http://users.pandora.be/wim.demeere/tech.htm Notice the martial application stuff shown with Bob Orlando of Kuntao Silat. I mean wouldn't all that good looking tech go out the window if Demeere resisted or fought back ? Then, what would be the point in training it that way. If the idea is to isolate techs and use them when they appear is this sort of multiple move choreographed response limited. In that it goes past a point in our training that crosses from maybe useful to being a detriment/ distraction. Illusion even ? It may also intill a false sense of security/ reality in students, teachers. If you see a problem here, what measures would you introduce to improve it/ rectify it. If you don't see a problem, why would you say that is? Cheers
I liked everything apart from that I don't really understand how forms that lean are in keeping with the stuff in the classics about not leaning. I didn't have a problem with any of it because fims are just intended to illustrate and teach - they're not real fighting. It would be hard to illustrate specific points if a fight was allowed to get free flow as you wouldn't know what the opponent was going to do - you couldn't really plan what techniques you'd need to use or anything and you'd also have to slow it right down and add a voiceover to explain what was going on. Step by step is fine for me. I couldn't see the last clip on my computer, unfortunately.
JK, One teacher at our school mentions how leaning forward is actually a more ancient idea of classics. Based more upon keeping the spine straight with the back leg making yourself sort of a wedge, thus enabling you to have a greater root. He says he learned this from his Master Wang Peisheng, and most of his forms include this very "unique" feature of leaning forward. Also seeing most of the Wudang forms in person almost all of their Tai Chi Chuan forms include this premise, if you try it, it actually does require even greater control of the legs as well as keeping them straight. If you are not flexible enough this leaning forward is quite ineffective, however with an increased flexibilty it does enable a practitioner to release a quicker and stronger strike and/or push. Especially when coordinated with a full body movement, the feel of it is similar to a tidal wave, you feel overwhelmed and enveloped completely. btw thanks for the clips cloudhandz
Hi Taoquan - oh I've tried it. The main way we learned Gao style Bagua had it in, but that was the Taiwanese branch rather than the Tianjin branch, which stayed upright and used jump steps instead of lunges. I've had teachers who explain it the way you did, but I remain unconvinced having tried both that and the "zhong zheng = centrally upright" approach. I find the leaning method overcommitted in a single direction (i.e. forwards). It's a bit like pushing a car and if the car drives away suddenly you fall on your nose. As a kickboxing buddy used to say to me "if you lean, you've only got to get up again." We used to try out a lot of different Taiji / Bagua / Kung Fu / Kickboxing approaches to see what worked best for us and pretty much agreed on everything. We're a pair of anti-leaners. p.s. I never comment from a position of ignorance - I've tried most things. Have you road tested staying upright?
Maybe the classics warned against leaning side to side...... Just a thought Anyway someone should have told this guy! http://www.iptaichi.org/Video/IPTaichiFistUnderElbowSingleWhip.htm
btw that's Ip tai Tak first disciple of Yang Sau Chung. About the leaning & the classics. Maybe they were directly reffering to application and not form practice. In application I don't think it is practical to maintain a vertical stance in any event. sometimes. Sure.. why not? I've noticed that some control to takedown techniques work better when you maintain a more upright posture and use the legs. More like squatting than bending over.
Yeah I have tried upright, our long form incorporates both so we can transition from both should it be necessary. Though I agree with you about the care analogy, that is the first thing I thought "Gosh what if I lean to far and miss? Or get pushed from behind?" My cousin when we used to spar in the beginning of my MA life, was fond of hitting me in the chin cause I might lean forward as well. He would always say "Hell if you are gonna stick it out there I'll hit it"
What does it say in the classics about not learning? out of interest... Straight spine i have heard ?? Dont Lean ... Waht style are we talking about? Yang Cheng Fu leaning. chen Xiao Wang ... leaning. Wu style Tai Chi cheers Chris
If you move fast you will lean. In Combat you will lean. Leaning is about aligning with movement.... not offbalancing yourself in certain directions but aligning your structure to your lines of force when high speeds are a factor ... this helps maintain relaxation and stops the u-necisary use of muscles to keep the spine vertical. for example ... if you stand bold upright and try to immediately sprint .... your lower back muscles will have to compensate and will most probably be pulled. If you incline and align with the movement you will not have to use the lower back to counter act the effect of inertia on your own structure. The mistake is to think that inclining is a constant. It is not. Just as central equalibrium is not a constant. So to say 'leaning' is a no no simply is an ideal that is not in keeping with natural movement, physics or Human body mechanics when talking about the speeds and constant changes of real combat. Cheers Chris
Sure - why do you think Zheng Manqing went his own sweet way? "Because if a style disobeys the classics the style is wrong" The Taijiquan Treatise [Wang Zongyue]: from p. 113 Yang Chengfu, The Essence & Applications of Taijiquan: & p.207 Fu Zhongwen, Mastering Yang style Taijiquan: "No leaning, no inclining. Suddenly hidden, suddenly appearing" from p. 287 Wong Kiew Kit Complete Tai Chi Chuan "Do not slump and do not slant. Suddenly we show and suddenly we disappear." I have many more translations and they are unanimous on not inclining. Exciting, isn't it?
You might lean a bit in combat but that is why you should constantly train yourself not to - to minimise it as much as possible. Look - it is just a different approach, but no one can tell me that there's nothing in the classics about it, because there is.
Not inclining I think shows a lack of intent, plus it seems to be a fairly recent change. You lose a lot of power in your techniques when you don't lean, it is essential in grappling I believe. As long as you maintain a straight line up the spine and head - keeping it all aligned - this is all gravy. I think the classics have been misstranslated in these cases. As I say I think it shows a lack of intent and comes from chen man-ching noodle armed stuff.
ok cool they are in there for sure ... but seems Yang Cheng Fu ignored his own advice! and when power is involved .... so did chen man ching Honestly ... i am of the opinion ... each to their own and be happy in their training ... so ... Happy training Chris
Just to be really stubborn I'm not totally convinced he's leaning there - where is his tailbone do you think? Other mistranslations of Wang Zongyue's Classic? - p.216, Tai Chi Theory and Martial Power by Dr. Yang Jwing Ming: "No tilting, no leaning. Suddenly disappear, suddenly appear." p. 120, Tai Chi Touchstones: Yang Family Secret Transmissions (translated by Douglas Wile): "do not lean or incline" + explanatory note on p.121 "Leaning and inclining is like a porcelain jar full of water. If the jar is upset, the water will spill out." I am quite confused as to how all of these people, Chinese people at that (with the exception of Wile) are mistranslating their own language and all in the same way. The analogy of the jar is pretty clear too. As Wang Zongyue wrote his classic in the 18th Century, I hardly think the idea of not leaning can be new! I think people have been trying to re-invent Taiji the other way to be honest, adding leaning in because it's easier than staying vertical. Oh everyone believes what they want to...
Personalty i dont think you can compare the lean of chen, yang or cheng with Wu To me the wu is off balance just my opinion jkzorya who is your teacher? mike
hi J, It may well not be mis translation .... it may be mis'interpretation'. We may be looking at the meaning incorrectly ... the original intention may be lost ... it could be any number of things ... It could be that you have it bang on! But if you look at the facts ... the motion that even masters who advocated vertical spine when they are fighting, pushing or whatever .. they will and always do incline.... as example. watch Master Chen man ching in application here ... [ame="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=c4603FB2mh4"]Chen Manching - YouTube[/ame] [ame="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=W6e01Gb-2h4&mode=related&search="]Chen Manching & Robert W. Smith - YouTube[/ame] Every issue of force .... all his movement involves leaning ... aligning with his direction of force. During very soft push hand skills he is maintining a verticle ... but kinked spine ... but when more real speed and force is involved he always inclined! i cannot find ONE exeption in these videos. here Chen Xiao Wang ... when rooting against strong force ... is inclining [ame="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ldH40uF_f28&mode=related&search="]chen xiaowang: rooting, balance - YouTube[/ame] It is a simple natural mechanic... But if you are a master that refutes inclining with your direction of force, personally, i think you should be able to express that idea. Incline or not its your choice .. but when the speed and pressure steps up ... i can almost garauntee you will align with your direction. happy training Chris
hey all, nice pictures middleway! excessive leaning = bad, think we all agree! a little bit of postural adjustment to emit power = ok the bigger the lean the easier to emit/absorb power, the smaller the greater body skill. and now we can all argure about how much leaning is bad! kind regards, timo
oh, and all of me teachers have said don't lean. even though they do (a little bit) when pushing hands. why? - to stop me intiating movement with my upper body - when pushing to find more power in my legs/ground and bringing it up once you have body skills then a little bit of lean is fine, necessary even. but for a beginner teachers want your focus elswhere to prevent bad habit formation. kind regards, timo
If 'a little bit of a lean is fine, necessary even' .... what is this bad habit your talking about?? The classics say dont lean ... your teacher says dont lean ... but when he does push hands he leans? what if we are talking full speed combat? The teacher has to lean ... but its cause his basics are good, i am sorry but this appears to be a double standard. I wonder ... ask your teacher to perform application without leaning at all. See if it is possible to do. We need to be honest with ourselves .... if the classics say dont lean ... are Chen man ching, Chen Xiao Wang, Wang Shu Jin, Su Dong chen, Lou De Xiou, He Jing Han, Chen Yun San .... etc etc all DOING IT WRONG! If so ... who is there to look to for the correct method? Remember no matter how much we want to adhier to the theories of an old master ... we are all human ... we will all move like humans. cheers Chris
In the HK Yang system, one layer of training involves... To transfer instantly and root from one leg to another you move the head faster using a sideways lean, with the spiralling body following it screws the foot into the floor whilst also spiralling upwards bringing the body eventually to an upright position allowing the the spine to drop into place to direct the co-ordinated powers wherever you need them. So in fact you do 'apparently lean' but on completion are upright over the weighted foot.
