Haganah?

[Munch]

A local school began advertising a self defence method they refered to as Haganah. I have never heard of it. Have any of you? It is alledgedly an Israeli system used by the IDF SpecOps. I thought Hisardut and Krav Maga were the systems employed by the IDF?

I thought Haganah was the simply the Hebrew word for defense and I know that the early (before Israel was a country) Israeli defense force was known as the Haganah.

More info can be found at:

www.fight2survive.com

It looks interesting, but I am overly skeptical of things like this. Can anyone shed some light on this?

Thanks.

[YODA]

Looks like yet another "combat" or "street" system - nice cammo trousers!

The video clips reveal the usual "dissecting the corpse" responses to dead attacks.

[marc hall]

haganah is the word used by the original IDF, this system from the fight 2 survive website was developed by the chap who runs the site (cant think of his name but he is ex israeli special forces) it is a cross mix of krav maga and hisdurat and some oriental arts, it is recognised by the israeli goverment as an israeli martial art and may well be taught to some spec ops guys now....again as with any army it depends on which instructor is with your unit,

how about this then KAPAP / LOTAR heard of it ??? another israeli art this is the extreme version of krav maga and IS taught to israeli spec ops guys

[Munch]

Marc,

Thanks for the info. Interesting that you mention Kapap-Lotar as it is in the Nov. issue of Budo International, which I just bought today. I have yet to read the article.

I am glad to hear that it is a recognized martial art. I might look into it. I just didn't want to enroll in some cheese-****-I-developed-a-new-style-for-the-money system. Which is precisely what I thought it was after reading the F.I.G.H.T. stuff. Any system that demands you buy a $150 video course before they allow you into a seminar seems greedy to me.

Marc, do you have any more info on Haganah? All I found was that F.I.G.H.T. website?

[marc hall]

i know no more, but REMEMBER this man who runs the site ALSO developed the style, anyone can create an art then have it recognised (if he was an IDF member,what stopping him instructing his unit in his form of fighting), it is as i have said a cross mix of several arts israeli and oriental,

marc

[KickChick]

I just came across this in our local newspaper and I just might go and check it out and write up a review here

"Self-Defense - Free introductory class in Haganah relaity-based self-defense as taught to Israeli and U.S. special forces and police departments. Easy to learn, highly effective; become proficient in a short time. Adults only 18 and older."

[Munch]

KickChick,

Could you please post your opinion on the class. I am still interested in learning more about the system.

Thanks.

Matt

[shonuff]

A lot of these "military" based MA's are very odd and mostly hype. They're MMA systems designed by the military to be easy to teach and learn in theory. They're often just amalgamations of basic several forms of Kung Fu (especially San Soo), Judo, Sambo, and BJJ smashed together to give some soldier some confidence in hand to hand in a few months.

Modern soldiers aren't supposed to be good in hand to hand. Modern soldiers concentrate in shooting rifles, laying landmines, and chucking mortars. THe only hand to hand they ever probably take seriously are assasination techniques/silent kill techniques and then it's probably only the special ops guys who learn it. MA training is done more for the confidence of the soldier in the battlefield than for his survival. MA makes a soldier feel like he is truly a well rounded warrior and probably gives him feel like he is connected to warrior of the past. In the modern battlefield if you are ever caught without a gun, you are as good as dead. If you ever end up in a hand to hand situation it's a fluke that the other guy didn't have a gun. The hand to hand won't take you very far.

All this haganah, systema, and scars stuff is probably all hype. You are better off going MMA and training in several martial arts.

[KickChick]

Originally Posted by Munch

KickChick,

Could you please post your opinion on the class. I am still interested in learning more about the system.

Thanks.

Matt

Here is my review:

Class was composed entirely of adults (geared to adults-only).... mostly young males .

As a TMArtist you may feel a bit out of place at first as this is as far from karate or TMA as you can get.

Going by some notes taken:
Haganah (the Hebrew word for 'defense') is a reality based self defense system which is partyly based on the Israeli ma of Hisadut and Krav Maga together with military tactics and some elements of Russian Sambo and other Israeli Special Forces techniques.

The instructor who was a traditionally trained 6th dan was certified by an Israeli SF vet Mike Kanarek (yes the same guy on the web site at beg of thread)

The techniques were pretty straightforward... nothing fancy based on quickly ending a fight with counterattacks.... and ALOT of hitting below the belt!!

Seems the Golden Rule of Haganah is "to do your best to avoid violence but if attacked, to devastate your attacker with overwhelming violence". So you must turn from victim to predator and turn your attacker's mindset to that of the victim.

Claims are that in 4 months you can become good..... 8 months smooth and in a year... good & smooth.
Which seems to be the most important claim of Haganha .... that you can become highly skilled in a short amount of time.
Moves are unbelieveably simple that even the most out of shape person could execute.
Defense is learned against guns, knives and even baseball bats.

A neat technique learned (especially good for the women) is a punch to the nerve centers of the neck rather than to the hard bones of the face which may injure your hand.

Of course there was the hard sell..... the opportuntiy to buy the book and 3 dvd set allowing the student to study at home. It covers all the moves taught in class... 10 gun defenses and 10 knife defenses.

Basically this class is for the individual who wants to learn eficient self defense techniques without putting in the time it takes to train in a martial art.... this is according to the instructor.

Of course this was only an introductory class and so just the very basics were covered .... most of what your basic self defense class will teach you.
The 3 aspects of survival:
Avoid the situation escaping if possible
Devestate you attackers ability to fight
Escape

... it seems that this particular fight system is gaining popularity and alot of instructors are becoming certified to teach this... so you may soon find classes offered at your area martial arts school.

Check the Locations link in the thread above to see if classes are offered in your state.

[Sandy]

Originally Posted by YODA

Looks like yet another "combat" or "street" system - nice cammo trousers!

Ah, but you can't buy the cammo trousers in their on-line store. What a missed marketing opportunity!

You can buy a rubber gun though

[Chilu]

I have taken one free class, and I love it. It is exactly what I am looking for. The person who made it, Mike Kanarek, lived in Israel much of his life and was in the military(i think 3 years military service is required). He combined Krav Maga with Hisardut(which is krav maga with some muay thia I think), KAPAP(another style similiar to krav maga, developed at the same time), and LOTAR(israels anti-terrorism stuff). Most of the stuff in those 4 styles was very similiar anyways. It is very simple, they take out the BS and put in what is effective. The main differences between Haganah and any other MA I have seen is the concept of Points of Reference( I will call them POR's for now). When you get attacked and you do the defences, you always end in one of the POR's and from their you choose what you want to do. If you are a soldier and they are an enemy soldier, or if they are holding hostages or are serious about taking your life, you do the Termination techniques(usually breaking their neck). If you are a policeman, you want to restrain them so you use the Control techniques. If you are a civilian and just want to end the fight and get to safety, you Incapacitate(mostly breaking their ankle from what I have seen so far so they can't chase you as well). There are either 3 or 4 POR's I think. The three ways you end a fight from the POR's(Terminate, Control, Incapacitate) are called Objectives. The Control ones are only recomended to police, as it can be dangerous to try and restrain an attacker if their are more. For Terminate it's just a choice you have to make, if they are serious about taking your life you better be prepared to defend it with lethal force, but that can have bad consequences. But it is better to be in jail than dead I think. The incapacitate techniques(well the only ones I have seen so far) deal with breaking the ankle, and if it doesn't break then it will probably be injured, and even if it is not they have been hit in the stomach or face, then kneed 3 times and then you knock them down. This style isn't so much for competing, but since some of its roots are boxing and muay thai it has sparring classes etc. The website is www.fight2survive.com feel free to go on their forum and ask any questions you want.

[Adam]

Or put more shortly, you see the guy, you hit the guy.

[KickChick]

Chilu most of the aspects that you brought up are similar to what has been previously posted ..... guess we were taking the similar intro class.

[Chilu]

Sorry I guess I did repost some stuff you posted, but I was just giving a summary of the style.