qin na

[God]

i don't know if it's appropriate to discuss here, but does anyone study this?

i bought a book on it to check it out.
at first i thought it was amazing and waaaay too good to be true. but i had problems with using some of the techniques on stronger people, but they were amazing on weaker people.

[SSJ1_Katrina]

do pardon my ignorance, but what is qin na precisely?
-katrina

[SSJ1_Katrina]

oh chin na.....right, i know about those. and quite like them, though they are not yet the focus of my training. good luck with them.
if you are learning from a book- how effective are you finding it, out of interest?
-katrina

[Sub zero]

Chi na is one of the main systems that links CMA and JMA which is of particular interest to me as i study JJ aswell as kung fu.

I've seen some of the techniques and quite honestly it seems to me just like ju jitsu techniques being taken as aplications out of forms from CMA. Both are very similar and i've found alot them to be very effective however nobody is suited to the same techniques.

I also think that alot of chi na techniques are poorly taught. The most important things are the principles in these techniques not "you pu tthis foot there then this foot there" etc etc.

Most techniques th\t i have seen do not rely on physical strength. so either your looking at ones that do (which i wouldn't consider very effective chi na) or the books not fully explaining them or ur not doing them quite right.

As i sadi getting alot of these techniques are hadder than what people think and would be very dificult to teach yourself from a book. Well i wouldn't like to anyway.

That's all if it was chi na u were talking about.

[Sub zero]

Oh and don't believe any book that tells you that all JMA came form chi na or another CMA.They really both effected each other.
This is usually the sign of a closed minded author.

[jmd161]

Qin Na is also known as Chin Na,Kum Na, and a few other names but it's all the same thing.


Kum Na as it's called in my style of Black Tiger is more than just locking techniques.Although that's what it's really known for.Kum Na has kicks,locks,throws,strikes,and ripping and tearing within it.

Most of the ripping and tearing are to actually rip tendons and stuff from bone.It requires alot of training to apply most Kum Na techniques.So i would say that learning from a book you are not going to get the basics you need to always make the techniques work.

You would be better off doing the techniques that use leverage more than brute power or force.Although Kum Na techniques really don't require brute power or force,but if you're learning from a book you're not going to know that.

It's a certain way you apply the techniques.Like using your thumbs to apply presure to areas on the hand that are weak and not protected and such.

I hope that helps you some?

If not? Feel free to ask anything you like and i'll try to help you understand better.

Kum Na is taught pretty much in every style of CMA so you don't have to look far to find it.


jeff

[KenpoDavid]

What a coincidence, I recently bought a book "Comprehensive Applications of Shaoiln Chin Na" and I am really liking it. We use a number of joint manipulations in our style of Kempo and this is really building on that.

Yes it is difficult to learn from a book, but I am trying to learn a little from the book and then apply it in class. This book in particlar is good because it has hundreds if not thousands of pictures! I especially appreciate the close-ups of finger and hand positions. Also the authors are careful to emphasize the principles of why a given technique is appropriate to cetain positions, and how to get into those setups, especially the footwork.

KD

[David]

I think there are a couple of very good books on chin na out there and they are good enough to learn from. My Shaolin Chin Na book by Jwang Jing Ming (sp.?) has hundreds of photos and lots of explanation.

I expect that the problem with the techniques not working on 'stronger' people is not that they can escape but rather that they won't allow you to put the move on.

Especially, on a stronger oponent, you need an element of surprise to take you to a certain point in the maneuvre beyond which the opponent cannot recover by mere resistance. After that point is reached, you're home and dry, unless he has the counters

I'm not sure what proportion of the moves have counters: any takers?

Rgds,
David

[jmd161]

Every Chin Na technique has a counter.


The secret is knowing when to counter it.

With chin na/qin Na/kum na you have to counter once you feel the technique being applied.Once it's locked in then you're at that persons mercy pretty much.There are techniques that can be countered after being locked in,but not many.

The next move after locking in is to either break the joint or rip tendons and muscle from the bone.


jeff

[God]

Originally posted by KenpoDavid
What a coincidence, I recently bought a book "Comprehensive Applications of Shaoiln Chin Na" and I am really liking it. We use a number of joint manipulations in our style of Kempo and this is really building on that.

Yes it is difficult to learn from a book, but I am trying to learn a little from the book and then apply it in class. This book in particlar is good because it has hundreds if not thousands of pictures! I especially appreciate the close-ups of finger and hand positions. Also the authors are careful to emphasize the principles of why a given technique is appropriate to cetain positions, and how to get into those setups, especially the footwork.

KD

what a coincidence...that's the book i got!

it really is awesome...it gives so many techniques and details.

my only problem is that it gives equal weight to palm, knife, open hand strikes, which are much less common in the entire universe of fighting, street fighting, tournament fihgting, etc.

i haven't looked at too many of the techniques though...but the ones i did seemed very brute force... i'll have to read into it more.

[KenpoDavid]

move in circles, use your opponents natural reactions against him. also it must be a surprise, says so right on page 1 LOL...

I laughed so hard though, on one of the techniques it said "if you lose control of your opponent's pinkie finger, immediately kick them in the groin" and I thought, they should say that after ALL of them!

I'm mainly trying to concentrate on the fist and block sections, but I am reading them all. What I am seeing is that there are a few basic moves combined in 50 differest ways, and each of those has who knows how many setups... so hopefully I can internalize some of that and it will come out as needed...

[SoKKlab]

Alot the books by Ming are decent,
a better Chin Na book IMO is:

Practical Chin Na by Zhao Da Yuan (Unique)
A review is here:
http://www.martialartsadvice.com/art.php?cat=4&art=85

Although their is alot of similarity with Japanese Ju Jitsu and some of the basics are very similar, alot of Chin Na techniques work on two or three points of emphasis at the same time.

Also Chin Na techniques are more highly developed in their vital points/ pressure areas work than the rudimentary Atemi of Ju Jitsu.

If you are having problems doing them, then your are not applying the principals of the movements correctly (Something that Zhao Da Yuan's book is very big on), same as iny decent Locking etc orientated art.

An article on Chin Na is here:
http://www.martialartsadvice.com/cat.php?cat=5

I must be one of those closed minded people though, as I feel that the Majority of the 'Influence' was firmly from China to Japan, as Chin Na existed as far back as 450 BCE and there are many descriptive passages that describe Chin Na techniques from that period and me a part time Ju Jitsu practioner too :P
Who would of Thunk it....

[Sub zero]

If your refering to my statement earlier sokklab then you are not close minded IMO.

Ju jitsui tehcniques are known thought to have existed around 3000 years ago. These were basic hand to hand tehcniques. I just find it very unlikely that martial arts wouldn't have developed in Japn wthi it's far back reaching turbulant history.

Just MO. but hey.

[SoKKlab]

I agree SZ,
Every country developed there own arts. My point is that Japan absorbed so much Chinese culture and influence that it is unlikely that the Japanese didn't take alot from them and then develop there own methodology-I can't see what they would of given back, particularly early in their history up until 1000 AD.

The first mentionings in Japanese history of Ju Jitsu like techniques is of Sumai (the ancestor of Modern Sumo wrestling) used in a mythical fight in 50 BCE.

Daito ryu AikiJuJutsu claims a heritage back to approx 1000 AD.

Besides three thousand years ago, there was no country called Japan, it was a group of islands inhabited by an Aboriginal people, the Ainu.

It was only with the influx of migrants from Continental Asia that the notion of 'Japan' become a reality.

Anyway, as I say, I agree.
Back to the topic-
Chin Na
it's Fab.

[TM77]

Chin-na according to what I read (somewhere I can't recall what book) is a direct descendant of Chinese wrestling - Shuai Jiao. As time passed the techniques became more intricate and eventually became chin na.

In my opinion chin na is too complex to learn from a book, though the books are good for reference. And since about 80% of chin na is sensitivity you'll need a partner for sure