I noticed this on the bujinkan mnachester thread As people may know , the UK government is wanting to restrict/ ban swords and particularly the Japanese katana so lets see if we can lend a voice against this bill, cause we all know how well the handgun bill in the uk is working http://petitions.pm.gov.uk/swords/
Apparently it's all down to gang-members opting for £10 'samurai' swords as a weapon of choice bscause it doesn't carry the same 5-year prison sentence for possession as a firearm. Although there have been a few incidents involving swords in the press, local and national, I think there is the same propoganda going on as when they banned all hira shuriken and claimed that the footbal terraces were littered with 'ninja death stars' after every match! What they don't do, as they didn't when they banned almost all of the curricular ninpo weaponry, is differentiate between training-quality weapons used by martial arts practitioners and cheap stamped out stainless steel welded-on-tang plastic shiny gold fittings rubbish like the sword that broke on the shopping channel. (see it on youtube). The people proposing the ban have already failed in several ways: Firstly they want to stop the sale of such 'weapons'. Too late, look how many are on ebay, let alone Weapons Galore etc, and the likes of Battle Orders who have been in business for decades. Secondly they say that an intruder could use such weapons against you. That is, if they aren't already tooled up and are too stupid to find something to kill you with in your shed or kitchen. Thirdly they want to take such weapons off the street. Well, the old adage couldn't be truer here: Good people don't need laws because they know how to behave, and bad people don't abide by laws anyway. We are going to see much more of the gun crime that has occured in London, Birmingham and Manchester recently, and the weapons involved have been illegal for years and 'controlled' for decades, so what difference will a sword ban make? True, there haven't been any shuriken murders, or any involving kyketsushoge, kusarigama, kusarifundo etc lately, but there weren't any before those weapons were banned. As for me, I'd rather some scum attacked me with a sword than shot at me from across the street, as this is what I've been training for. Looks like mutodori isn't an outdated skill after all!
So a £20,000 Samurai sword will get banned? Somehow, there are more people getting killed by idiots wielding large metal objects every day in the UK and the figures for them thing are appalling. Yet they wish to ban the sword and not the motor car? Will the band cover the religious swords used in Pagan practice? They are after all an object that is part of the belief system and if taken away can be seen as human right infringement/oppression of a religious right. So can they ban a sword if they take away a religious relic ETC?
Car is a tool, same as a kitchen knife, a sword is a weapon. If you can find a religious use for a Samurai Sword you'll get to keep it, and many people will join your religion
But automobiles causes more deaths. And a car is not a tool. A tool is something designed for a purpose. Automobiles are just a workhorse, same as a lathe. Both causes accidents if not trained. And yet you can have a 17 year old drive a car fast down a road and do a Marc Bolan to a tree. Tell me how many people were killed by swords last year compared to automobiles? Is it more or less than automobile accidents or fatalities? If the government want to ban anything it should be idiots that think they are the dogs gnats only to end up doing a Ayrton Senna.
Immolation posted I don't think its saying that all swords will be banned just the cheap one that find themselves bought by wannabee ninjas. See here http://press.homeoffice.gov.uk/press-releases/samurai-sword-ban?version=1 Particularly this paragraph and So it might be that legitimate groups Bujinkan, Jinenkan, Genbukan and dare I say it To-Shin Do, that can trace themselves to a proper teacher will actually benefit from this legislation IF the exemptionas are made for bone fide martial artists. Its the people like the konnigun Ryu and joe bloggs who wants to set himself up as a Fuma Ryu Ninja master that will suffer and the criminal element in our society. Gary Arthur
Imolation posted Well if its like the laws with knives i.e Offence of having article with blade or point in public place section 139 of the Criminal Justice act 1988 there is a defence Gary Arthur
garth - I wonder if you're carrying a katana to training and are an instructor...would 'at use for work' be accepted?
SO the differences between having a sword for training and walking around the street is different if we were all martial artists and normal? Garth... There is just one thing wrong with what you said. Everyone has to be legitimate and must be part of a recognised school. So that means you have to prove your history and so on. So what is to stop a street numbnut walking in to a martial arts training hall and training for a few weeks, asking the instructor to buy him one? Or what is there to allow is to buy a sword if the ban is in place. Do they need written consent from your instructor who happens to run a McDojo like GoKan Ryu? After all, there are thousands of those dojos in the UK. How legitimate are they? Look at the way gun licenses were handed out. You were a member of a gun club. you had to register it with the police. All legal and you could shoot someone with it. Nice. Ban came in place after some idiot decided to walk into a primary school as he was a scout leader and he thought people thought he was kiddy fiddler. So he kills children and guns are banned. Now look at gun crime. We have 8-9 year olds carrying them as adults will be arrested for posession. The gun carriers are law exempt as law for crimes start at aged 10. So if they are made illegal, what is to stop the idiots on the streets buying them in from Europe? what about the machete attacks on a kindergarten in Birmingham where the teacher put herself first and received major injuries. Does the sword ban cover machete, long knives, tanto? What is the grey area of the proposed laws? Or is it run by definition by saying what a samurai sword looks like as the press love to claim fantasy swords as samurai.... (look up the story of the man in the church in 2000 for the story of that attack).
I'm still a bit nervous about the 'made under licence in Japan' bit as not many of us own genuine Japanese shinken but plenty of us rely on the likes of Paul Chen (Hanwei), Cold Steel, Last Legend, Thaitsuki, Cheness, Badtrack, koto etc etc, not to name all the speciality cutlers that know their metallurgy out there. These might not be covered by the ban. Perhaps they should just ban anything in a plastic saya with a hamon that doesn't run onto the boshi, and plastic same/menuki/kurigata or stainless steel, or un-pegged and non existent tangs, non-steel tsuba, and anything with 'china' stamped on the blade, and any garish multicoloured, glitsy gold, dragon shaped koshirae or comes with a shiny black laquered/plastic stand with thin synthetic tsuka ito, etc etc etc. I think the government should give us all jobs as sword appraisers!
Immolation said:- A good point Will and I'm hoping that the correct answer is "the instructor". I refuse to obtain, provide, supply or endorse ANY training equipment, including training weapons, which are not specifically listed as being part of the syllabus in my personal dojo. Unfortunately you make a good point. People might be tempted to sign up to a class for a few weeks so as to get equipment like swords. It's down to instructors to put budo before profit though I think. Unfortunately there are plenty of instructors out there who will just sell stuff to their customers so as to make some quick cash. :bang:
Or ban all MA films, Blade series on Bravo and all Kill Bill films. After all, gun culture is film based, samurai sword fascination is derived from the media and films... So lets ban films that have any reference to swords, killing with swords, and we can all sit down and watch The Care Bears and other American induced brainwashing propaganda TV.
Problem is that regardless of the ban its not going to be hard to get a sword, whether training or otherwise. Maybe the more dense won't figure it out but that does not stop the more clued up getting one and selling it on for a profit. Regardless of whats banned it can always be obtained and alot easier than people think.
Exactly. Anyone can get anything as long as they know who and where. They can ban all swords, make people pay large amounts of money just to insure an instructor, but at the end of the day, they will still be there. An amnesty will not suffice. It just allows people who own replicas to hand them in, while the real ones are out there ready to take a life. Us MA people will get the wrong end of the law and end up having to fight tooth and nail to get the reputation back.
Well, they edited the nunchaku scenes out of the ninja turtles movies when they first came out, even though they hadn't banned nunchaku, just in case it gave kids 'ideas', and shuriken recieved the same treatment in later releases of the Sho Kosugi ninja movies so the paranoia is there. Kill Bill wouldn't be much to watch without the swords though, unless they replaced the swords digitally with sausages! Who wants to see Uma Thurman playing with a sausage? (puts hand up)
Immolation posted If your walking around the street with an unsecured sword i.e not in a bag your asking for trouble, whoever you are. Take a look at the gun laws. You can get a licence for owning a gun and transporting it place to place, but that does not mean you can sling a gun over your shoulder and go shopping. Any responsible person with a gun would have it in a case and the ammunition kept seperate and would only have it out when going to or returning to his gun club. Now to be honest even now if you are walking around with a sword even without the new legislation you are going to be in trouble, UNLESS you take some responsibility. Put your sword in a bag, tie it up, put it in the boot of your car along with your gi and go to the martial arts club. When you come home take the sword out and put it in your house. Now the consultation paper says So as long as you can prove you are going to a martial arts club there should be no problems. You see in this respect its no different from anything else. Get found at a riot with a baseball bat in your car or walking around an estate at 3 in the morning with it over your shoulder then your liable to get nicked. Get stopped in a car with a baseball bat, gloves and all the gear in your boot with your Baseball club membership card at 7pm and the police officer looking in your boot probably would not even raise an eyebrow. So if your not using the sword as a museum exhibit, part of your job i.e film actor, martial artist or avid antique collector, why would one want a sword? You see this proposal is to do with the cheap swords. Most museums are only interested in antique swords, most martial artists, although we may have in the past bought cheap swords we tend to gravitate towards the better end of the market eventually, and stage swords of course most of the time are not even sharpe and cannot hold an edge. I believe even some of the blades are made of bamboo or a similar material for safety. So who is it that buys the cheap swords. In my home town you can go into the local budget store and buy a very sharp sword for 25 quid. And whos buying them? Well it aint the martial artists, museum curators, and stage actors, and they sure aint being used for religious practice. And to be honest whats wrong with having some legitamacy to being a martial artist and thus being able to own a sword and take it to your club without any worry of being in trouble for doing so? Theres always a way around a law. But even with the above scenario. if Mr Numbnuts its out with his sword and NOT going to a martial arts club at 2 in the morning and has it slung over his shoulder or tucked in his coat ala highlander he's going to get nicked. No different to today even without the legislation. I think you need to look at this more closely. the police don't just hand out licences willy nilly. And no you can't shoot someone with it, and if you do they might be able to find you. No you really need to look at this more closely. Firstly the gun laws have been around way before the Dunblaine incident, its just that the Dunblaine incident led to some tightening in the controls of certain weapons. Guns are NOT banned, only certain ones. My laws a bit rusty here but one can own a air rifle and even carry it around as long as its covered (same with a sword) and using it in the correct manner i.e going from a to z or from home to the gun club or shooting range. Other firearms pistols etc need one to licence the weapon with the police to check that Mr Numbnuts with previous convictions for violence is not getting a licence and hense being legal to own one. Nothing stopping him getting one of course but he's liable for a spell in prison if he does. So I guess you are saying that its pointless bringing in restrictions because people will get guns anyway. Which is a bit like saying "lets not stop shoplifters because if we do they will just turn to street robberies or burglary instead" As I say we all know guns are about and if one wants one they can get one. But by having restrictions it means that hopefully only the people with a bonefide reason for having one will be allowed to legally own one and not the criminal element who will receive (hopefully) a stiff sentence if caught with one. As for law starting at 10 for children you are technically correct, but there are exeptions such as the Bulger case. Nothing except that now the idiots are in even worse trouble because they have a sword. See the new proposals and the Criminal justice act 1988. Maybe shaply pointed instrument and knife with blade over 3 inches might give you a clue. You really have not looked at the proposals have you. I think you may find a definition of a samurai sword. Gary Arthur
MWDAndy posted Immolation said:- Quote: So what is to stop a street numbnut walking in to a martial arts training hall and training for a few weeks, asking the instructor to buy him one? "A good point Will and I'm hoping that the correct answer is "the instructor". I refuse to obtain, provide, supply or endorse ANY training equipment, including training weapons, which are not specifically listed as being part of the syllabus in my personal dojo. Unfortunately you make a good point. People might be tempted to sign up to a class for a few weeks so as to get equipment like swords. It's down to instructors to put budo before profit though I think. Unfortunately there are plenty of instructors out there who will just sell stuff to their customers so as to make some quick cash" Could not agree more. The only people really that should be worried about this legislation is the people doing it for a profit and the criminal element. Personally i never sell real bladed weapons, only bokken, wooden tanto and Bo staffs. If some asks me about a sword i tell them that if they really want one then get a good one and not a cheap plastic ninja sword. As Andy says, if its not in the syalbus why do you want one. Sure I can understand that one might wish to practice sword drawing, but it looks like from the draft proposals that swords used for martial arts are exempt. And if an instructor is buying a sword for a student after only a few weeks in this martial art at least then in my opinion the instructor is being a bit irrisponsible. I would not by them a sword after two weeks anymore than I would teach them knife fighting. Gary Arthur
What's to stop them walking into a diy store and buying a sickle, chainsaw or machete? Swords are sexy, but there's plenty of other weapons out there to use. I doubt many thugs will be joining M/A for weapons.
