Interesting QiGong Article: Your opinions?

[Yin-Yang Boxer]

Hello all,
I have just come across this article and as I'm reading it, I thought I would share it here to see what others opinions are.

Once I've finished, I'll post some insights of my own.

Many regards,

Yin-Yang Boxer

[inthespirit]

Repeated over stimulation of peripheral vision during concentration can drive a person mad?

If that was the case I think everyone that drove a car for a significant amount of time would go nuts. Also, everyone that worked in an open plan office would go nuts. In fact, just about any activity repeated daily has the potential of making you loose the plot. Its all that damn peripheral vision! Maybe we should get those things they put on horses so that they look straight ahead. Bahhhh…

IMO, tis a load of uneducated and inexperienced waffle, probably got some other agenda or maybe been hitting the crack pipe.

The funniest thing is that at the start it says in big bold letters “This page explains why Qi Gong works”.

Edit: It gets even more ridiculous on one of their other pages:
http://www.visionandpsychosis.net/Ev...connection.htm

[jkzorya]

Anyone here heard of Sima Nan?
http://www.csicop.org/sb/9903/sima-nan.html
http://www.rickross.com/reference/fa.../falun101.html

I don't really think it is the peripheral vision thing that sends people mad, but maybe we shouldn't dismiss outright that it might be a contributing factor. I believe it is the more general dissociative nature of some qigong practices (ones that include focussing on localised sensations and visualisations.)

Rather like the fabled "Kundalini awakening" such practices are fraught with dangers, yet practitioners often expose themselves to those practices without thinking. I think that people do not take the issue seriously enough. We're told qigong is spiritual and involves drawing energy into your internal energy reservoirs. That energy has to come from somewhere, but people seem unconcerned as to where. http://www.reelingsilk.co.uk/trouble.htm

I think an interesting double standard is in place. If there was a Systema seminar or a Krav Maga seminar and the participants were invited to join the facilitators in prayer before training, how many would abstain? Yet, in a CMA class, how many will abstain from qigong?

If a prayer before training was to thank God for giving you life and to guide you towards benevolence, would you pray then? How about if the prayer included a line about helping you to do God's work? On the other hand, how would you feel if you were asked to circle your hands and invite the holy spirit to enter your body and fill your punches with power? How many would abstain then? Could it simply be that some people will only get spiritual when they want something?

What about if your local Kung Fu teacher was a member of the Christian Wushu Fellowship and he did a more secular / purely physical warm up. He might also invite you to join him in prayer before training. Would you try to find another teacher, join him in prayer, or abstain? Would you then also feel that the spiritual element was missing from your practice? How about if he was a card carrying Communist party member and viewed all spiritual practices as decadent. He might be prepared to teach the movements and the martial function, but that would be all!
Would you still feel like something was missing?

Conversely, would you object if he wanted you to bow before a picture of one of his ancestors instead, or perhaps to bow to a statue of Buddha? In Japanese arts, how many people are prepared to bow to the spirit of the training room?

It seems that while some people would have major problems allying themselves to any god (which it could be argued gives a strange credence to the existence of all of them) they would not worry about drawing on a supposedly abstract spiritual force to further their own ends. Some would be quite prepared to draw this power from the ground or the sky - others from trees, others from other people.

The following is from Jerry Alan Johnson's website http://www.daoistmagic.com/

1. Daoist of the Right-Hand:
The right-handed or orthodox path of Daoism emphasizes prayer, meditation, rituals and other spiritual disciplines that insist on a high degree of cultivated virtue, purity, and rules of conduct. In training, the practice of the Daoist of the Right Hand brings internal peace to the individual's Yuan Shen (Original Spirit). The right-handed Daoists generally embody the specific practices of either monastic life (being celibate, renouncing social positions, etc.), or family life (being married, raising children, and assuming specific leadership roles in guiding the virtues of society). The Daoist of the Right-Hand are further divided into two traditional schools of training, Orthodox Training and Reclusive Training. These two Daoist schools are describes as follows:
Orthodox Training: This type of Daoist training includes the practice of specific prayers, meditations, memorizing scriptures, performing rituals and acts of charity.
Reclusive Training: This type of Daoist training is sometimes regarded as the higher path of the Daoist Right-Hand school of training. It requires the mystic to remove him or herself from society becoming a lone sage. After recognizing the flaws of ritualistic forms of worship and giving up the politically ingrained patterns of religious dogma, the mystic generally retreats to a cave for internal introspection. Although ritualistic forms of worship are essential for purifying the mind, any form of external oriented action can also keep the mind bound to the external world. Therefore, in the highest stages of Daoist mystical training, the individual releases all attachments to material objects (people, places and things) and spiritual powers (controlling the Elements, the Six Transportations of Shen, etc.) and strives only to attain "oneness" with the eternal Dao through self-introspection.

2. Daoist of the Left-Hand:
The left-handed or unorthodox path of Daoism embodies the specific practices that the right-handed Daoists have rejected (e.g., sexual cultivation, ingesting intoxicants, etc.). This does not mean that the left-handed path of Daoist mysticism does not involve orthodox practices (i.e., rituals, incantations, talismans, etc.), however, the path that the mystic sojourns is quite different. In training, the practice of the Daoist of the Left Hand brings passion and ecstasy to the Zhi Shen (Acquired Spirit). The Daoist of the Left-Hand are further divided into two traditional schools of training: Symbolic Training, and Literal Training. These two Daoist schools are describes as follows:
Symbolic Training: This type of Daoist training includes the symbolic use of "forbidden things." For example, sexual intercourse is observed as the cosmic union of Yang (male) and Yin (female) energetic forces within the psyche; Intoxication is viewed as partaking of the bliss of pure divine consciousness of the Dao. In the Symbolic school of Daoist Left-Hand training, certain internal concepts are considered to be in harmony with those internal concepts of the Daoist Right-Hand school of training.
Literal Training: This type of Daoist training includes the actual use and training of "forbidden things." For example, sexual intercourse is taught using either single cultivation ("vampiring" the partner's life-force energy), or duel cultivation (exchanging energy with a partner); Intoxication is achieved through the consumption, ingestion or inhalation of herbs, hallucinogenic drugs, and herbal pills, wines and tinctures.

?This makes me wonder how many people are prepared to take the Right hand path?

Westerners take part in spiritual cultural practices of Chinese and Japanese martial arts without thinking. Why is that? Some may state that they feel more drawn to Eastern spirituality, but what does that mean? Many simply won't have given it any thought or won't take the spiritual aspect seriously enough to worry about it. Could it really be that "spiritual practices" are seen as harmless because (when it suits people), they are not taken very seriously? Yet at other times they'll argue strongly with anyone who says "stop doing them then."

You might say you don't want to think about such things, but if you are doing qigong to draw energy into your dantian (power reservoir) that energy must be coming from somewhere, so you're already in it up to your neck!

Consider the following passage from the article "You're a Cult!" in the latest copy of the TCUGB's "Tai Chi Chuan & Internal Arts" by Dan Docherty (which refers to alleged Daoist practices).

In part viii, the "Nine Grades of Practice", for the "Lowest of the Low" level, which mention 72 schools of sexual play, we have, "... some have a virgin boy and girl copulate..." which parallels a passage in one of 40 essays passed by the Yang family to the Wu which purports to have come from Chang San-feng and deals with internal alchemy. The passage talks about "matching the jade girl and the baby boy..."

Mr. Docherty goes on to say "I hope those who deny Tai Chi Chuan's Taoist roots now realise that they are right, what they practice truly has nothing to do with Taoism"

To which I'd have to reply - if Taoism / Daoism or indeed Tai Chi Ch'uan practices have ever had anything at all to do with Jerry Alan Johnson's sexual vampirism or with getting virgins to copulate, I'm glad what I practice has nothing to do with that. If they are genuine, wherever such decadent practices come from, they should be rooted out and utterly eradicated. I only took up the art for its fighting techniques. I sometimes think that maybe I'm the only one who practices the art solely for that purpose.

Lots to think about isn't there? Some might protest that they are not getting into MAs so they have to think about such issues. However I'd have to counter-argue that it is precisely because you are learning fighting skills that you can not abstain from thinking about it. If you might end up hurting or possibly even killing someone, albeit in self-defense, in who's name will you be doing it?

[kurt wagner]

I'm reading them out of context, but are you suggesting that both these people are advocating these practices rather than reporting them from an historical perspective?

[jkzorya]

Jerry Alan Johnson professes to teach those aspects at his monthly seminars.

I don't really know what Dan Docherty means - I think the tone of the article is that Daoist practices and in his view (by extension) Taiji practice can and does contain sexual elements. But I can't really speak for him regarding what he means.

My own view is that such practices are untraditional and may have come in with the Wu style / Manchurian ruling elite. They certainly weren't part of my Chen or Zheng Manqing style training. Even if they were once a genuine part of Taiji's longer history, they'd still need to be removed. I personally think that such aspects have been stuck on top and that any claimed historical link may be being used to justify decadent behaviour.

[jkzorya]

Consulting Dan's book "Complete Tai Chi Chuan" chapter 10:

...there are exercises which use breath control and alternate tension and relaxing of the lower body, in particular the sphincter, to stimulate the production of internal secretions and to enable the practitioner to develop greater control and thus prolong the sexual act. Similar exercises are performed in conjunction with martial movements in a variety of Chinese martial arts, including Tai Chi Ch'uan.

He later talks about the re-emergence of sexual qigong, since the 1960's

...certain texts published by Wu Jianquan's descendants in 1980: three of these, attributed to Chang San-Feng and referring to internal alchemy, are clearly from this controversial tradition. I believe these texts to be spurious, and suspect that they were written by one of Yang Luchan's or Ban-hou's students in the imperial Court to curry favour with Manchu nobles or eunuchs who indulged in deviant practices.

So I get rather mixed messages from the two pieces of writing - the article and the book. The magazine article, published recently, seems to unapologetically describe such things an authentic part of Taiji's history. His book, published in 1997 seems to be a lot more reserved about the authenticity of content of that nature.

[inthespirit]

Hi Joanna, I’m a bit confused about what your saying in your first post. Anyway, I thought I would just ramble on for a bit as usual.

Personally, I see Qi Gong as primarily a practice to release and control tension, align structure, control breath and control awareness. All of these IMO play an important part in relaxation, self control, control of emotions, feelings, instincts, etc. If I had to make a general statement I would say Qi Gong is about increasing awareness in order to have greater knowledge and control over your mind and body. This sort of practice allows you to isolate specific parts relevant to Tai Chi and once used to, include them in your form or wherever, i.e. they become part of you.

More energetic practices such as absorbing energy from various elements etc, well I don’t really know too much about that, I did train them for several years, and they did have positive effects, but why they work and such I can only understand via a Taoist / CMA framework. The source of the energies used differs, but at the end of the day are all things not energy, as such, what is the difference where it comes from. Personally, I think of these type of practices as energy management. Whereas what I mentioned in the previous paragraph has a result on energy levels, it is not direct management and control as with these sort of exercises.

Originally Posted by jkzorya

You might say you don't want to think about such things, but if you are doing qigong to draw energy into your dantian (power reservoir) that energy must be coming from somewhere, so you're already in it up to your neck!

I think there are two schools of though regarding this, i.e. wei dan and nei dan. Wei dan (external elixir) absorbs energy from outside the body, and nei dan (internal elixir) converts energy inside the body, such as converting essence in to qi.

Originally Posted by jkzorya

Even if they were once a genuine part of Taiji's longer history, they'd still need to be removed. I personally think that such aspects have been stuck on top and that any claimed historical link may be being used to justify decadent behavior.

If they were indeed part of the tradition, and we removed them due to us not understanding their significance (as I assume we don’t) would that not be watering down? In fact, is that not what happens in many schools and they end up with a empty shell/form.

[kurt wagner]

Originally Posted by jkzorya

I don't really know what Dan Docherty means - I think the tone of the article is that Daoist practices and in his view (by extension) Taiji practice can and does contain sexual elements. But I can't really speak for him regarding what he means.

Something about the title (and the explanation mark) indicates to me a less didactic tone. Some of his other articles seem to have a high level of scepticism towards these types of beliefs and practices; not to mention a noticeable level of sarcasm. I don't suppose you've got a link to the whole article?

Originally Posted by jkzorya

My own view is that such practices are untraditional and may have come in with the Wu style / Manchurian ruling elite. They certainly weren't part of my Chen or Zheng Manqing style training.

I think there is a long practice of belief systems and practices adopting and claiming as there own previous or rival systems; hence you have the former pagan holidays of Christmas and Easter becoming Christian and the wholesale appropriation of Jedism by the believers in Energetics.

[jkzorya]

Hi inthespirit,

If they were indeed part of the tradition, and we removed them due to us not understanding their significance (as I assume we don’t) would that not be watering down? In fact, is that not what happens in many schools and they end up with a empty shell/form.

not if we accept the following:

"Prior to the end of the Qing Dynasty [1911], Chinese martial arts had one goal, pure and simple: winning confrontations through intimidation, the use of weapons, or the use of one's fists. Chinese martial arts were viewed in much the same way that being good with a gun was viewed in the American frontier - it was a survival skill. And like being good with a gun, Chinese martial arts were considered to be a physical skill, a manual skill; they were not linked to any esoteric philosophy, nor were they viewed as a form of character development, religious practice, or spiritual development."
- Brian Kennedy & Elizabeth Guo

This makes it clear that esoteric philosophy, character development, religious practice and spiritual development are recent additions to the martial tradition. Therefore, their removal would be what Hong Junsheng referred to as "doing away with the dregs."

There is also the whole moral issue. If Satan offered you superhuman powers in return for your soul, would you take him up on it? You don't have to specifically believe in a malevolent intelligent power to at least ask yourself that question as a "what if?" It's also a bit like the question "would you try to use the ring in Lord of the Rings?"

[inthespirit]

I see what you mean. But, do we trust the views of Brian Kennedy & Elizabeth Guo (no idea who they are btw), cause their perspective surely is not the only one available to us.

How can we really decide which is right and which is wrong, as we have no official historic record on the subject at hand. So in essence any such historical ideas are just theories and assumptions.

Personally, I don’t really care what was and is, I will train the things I find useful to my practice and these are subject to change with time. Though, I’m sure I may or may have dismissed certain things due to my lack of understanding.

There is also the whole moral issue. If Satan offered you superhuman powers in return for your soul, would you take him up on it? You don't have to specifically believe in a malevolent intelligent power to at least ask yourself that question as a "what if?" It's also a bit like the question "would you try to use the ring in Lord of the Rings?"

I don’t really see where the moral issue is originating. Its not like we’re actually being given the ring of power. Where dose this idea of superhuman powers come from? What makes you bring this up? Are these sorts of practices supposed to make us superhuman?

[jkzorya]

I don't suppose you've got a link to the whole article?

Sorry - I haven't. Maybe they'll post it on the TCUGB website soon. It is from his review of a book called "The Book of Balance and Harmony - A Taoist Handbook" translated by Thomas Cleary.

Dan describes the book as "immensely interesting to Tai Chi Chuan practitioners ... It is divided into 20 sections covering alchemy, Taoistic practices - including meditative, breathing and sex; philosophy, poems, commentaries and criticisms." His review is generally very positive in tone and I don't think any sarcasm is evident. He makes comments such as passages being "of crucial relevance to both Tai Chi Chuan and Qigong practitioners."

[inthespirit]

Hmmm… just a thought, maybe Taoism is not necessarily an adjunct to Tai Chi, but Tai Chi is a useful/recommended adjunct to Taoism.

[jkzorya]

I don’t really see where the moral issue is originating. Its not like we’re actually being given the ring of power. Where dose this idea of superhuman powers come from? What makes you bring this up? Are these sorts of practices supposed to make us superhuman?

Many claims are made for qigong, from its alleged ability to "cure" cancer and AIDS, to iron shirt ability and empty force. Such "abilities" are by definition superhuman by virtue of the fact that they are beyond normal human ability.

It does depend on the practitioner and their teacher and where they claim to draw their power from. Some seem to draw energy from nature, others from their own supressed or transformed "seminal essence."

I think Zheng Manqing's student Ken Van Sickle describes natural forces well as: gravity, momentum, inertia, centrifugal and centripetal forces. That works for me - there's nothing spiritual about any of that - you just need to learn how to use your body in maximum harmony with those forces.

My first teachers taught without any qigong - and with no references to qi. (We did exercies, but we were just developing our functional flexibility). Such training was designed to develop tendon, ligament and muscle strength and did just that and as far as we students were concerned, that was as "internal" as our training got. My Chen style "qigong" training seemed primarily geared to develop the movement quality of smooth rotational twisting movement (chansigong - literally twisting / twining silk power)

I've subsequently trained with people who have use supplementary qigong, but it seemed to be a mish mash of warming up, stretching, and energy visualisation with no clear purpose and no benefits that I could deduce.

[jkzorya]

Hmmm… just a thought, maybe Taoism is not necessarily an adjunct to Tai Chi, but Tai Chi is a useful/recommended adjunct to Taoism.

Well if that is the case, I'm interested in Tai Chi for its own sake, not as an adjunct to Taoism.

I like Taoist philosophy, but the Religious Taoism that came later totally turned the ideas on their head, becoming the antithesis of the tradition.

[onyomi]

I agree that martial arts and qigong started out as two seperate fields, but I think there has been a lot of crossover long before 1912.

As far as I can tell, it goes something like this: Daoists (and later Buddhists) use "energy cultivation" exercises as part of their quest to achieve spiritual enlightenment. TCM adopts this theory of the "energetic" body for use in such treatments as acupuncture. Whether exposed to qigong via Daoists, Buddhists or Medical practitioners, some martial artists find that qigong can also be of benefit to martial practice. Therefore, some martial artists incorporate some qigong practices into their training... and voila.

For example, my Taiwanese Mantis teacher practices a type of "Buddhist" qigong taught to him by his Mantis teacher. Now his Mantis teacher supposedly learned it from his Mantis teacher, but going back that far it's kind of hard to know where exactly it came from. Regardless, my GM was already a practicing martial artist by the end of the Qing, so there's at least one example of a pre-Nationalist era CMA master doing qigong. My other Mantis teacher, was taught a Daoist system of qigong which can apparently be traced back about 200 years to a specific Daoist. I'm sure the Daoists' reason for creating this type of qigong was to better facilitate religious pursuits, but Mantis practitioners found it benefited them, so they adopted it.

This doesn't mean that martial arts training was ever about achieving spiritual enlightenment, just that martial artists were able to borrow techniques people searching for enlightenment came up with to achieve such benefits as increased speed and power, reduced recovery time, improved bodily awareness, improved respiratory function, and others. That is to say, you don't have to be after enlightenment to practice qigong, nor do you even need to be religious. There's no denying that qigong practice can affect the mind, but whether or not you wish to interpret that as "harmonizing with the dao" or just "optimizing hormone and neurotransmitter levels" is up to you.

I've also heard of the "left hand path" as the more "forceful" path, i.e. one that doesn't mind taking semi-dangerous shortcuts to achieve the energetic goals of qigong. I feel like some Kundalini Yoga may fall into this category considering some of the horrifying accounts I've read by people--it seems they were somehow shoved into a high energetic level with no physical or mental preparation. (Though I'm guessing good Yoga teachers won't do that to you).

My Buddhist qigong definitely falls into the "right hand path," with the greatest possible emphasis on total relaxation, and not using any "unnatural" techniques to speed up the process (such as lifting the anus). It's a little slower, but much less likely to cause "the demons to enter." It is true that a monastic environment (a tranquil environment free of distractions) would be ideal for qigong practice, but I think modern people can still achieve many of its goals if they're willing to put in time and effort. After all, we mostly just want better health and maybe to add a boost to our martial arts, which takes less "alone" time than "dissolving into rainbow light" or whatever else the hermits are trying to achieve.

So, I think that yes, qigong has been a part of some CMA's training for more than 100 years, but no, most martial artists probably didn't often use it for spiritual goals--they just took what they could to try to enhance their martial prowess.