Hello all, I was just wondering what you all thought of Stephen K. Hayes art, To-Shin Do? There's a couple of dojos near me that claim to teach it, and I was just wondering if it would even be worth checking out, or am I better off not bothering all together? Now I know it isn't real "ninjutsu", but I figured I would post it here in the ninjutsu thread seeing how Hayes has claimed it to be "ninjutsu put into modern day terms", or something like that. The art of ninjutsu always caught my interest, but apparently there aren't any Bujinkan (or any of the x-kan dojos for that matter) anywhere near me, but there are a couple To-Shin Do schools, so I was just wondering if that would be the next best thing?
I am afraid these are questions you will have to answer for yourself. Our opinion means little to your training or thinking on the matter. I don't know where abouts in Michigan you are but there are several Good Bujinkan instructors in that state so I would suggest that you Check out all the schools and do a little research in to the Bujinkan training in that state as you may find some smaller training groups around if you contact the main Instructors in that state. Try winjutsu.com to start with and there is at least one Michigan Instructor that posts here from time to time. If you try them all or as many as you can get to you can then see for yourself what suits you.
actually, I did just find a Bunjinkan school (though I'm not sure how big it is) that is actually on the same street that my Taiji teacher lives on, haha, so I guess there isn't one that far away at all. I'm going to write this guy an e-mail and ask him the obvious questions (what days, times, how much, etc.), now my only fear is: is this guy a fake? Is there any way I can tell right away who's a fake, and who really does know what they're talking about?
Find out who they are and checkout id they appear on the winjutsu site or Send Ben Cole a pm he is a member here and I am sure if the Bujinkan school you have found is legit he will know of them or can put you in touch with anyone that may be in your area.
This sounds like a fish bait question... Some guy trying to pull off an innocent question... "Is Van Donk's course any good?"... or... "Can you really learn from long distance?" "I know that Hayes claims things that arn't true... but should I study under him?" My answer... Since for you the Bujinkan is the only way to learn Taijutsu... find a Bujinkan school and don't even look at anything else.
Most of the people here are Bujinkan, and totally hate Steve Hayes. Many (the affore mentioned Ben Cole for example) seem to be on a personal mission to discredit him. So I wouldn't plan on getting much unbiased info about anything having to do with him around here. My suggestion would be to check out the classes and see what you think. If you are interested in learning traditional taijutsu they are probably not the right place to go, but if you are interested in self defence, they may just be fine.
hmm sorry you seem to be a bit misled, most of the people dont really care but a lot DO want to hear proof of his claims which are only supported by the triumphant Garth.
Not me. I have nothing against him. But whatever is said about a certian appendage is a gross misrepresentation of truth.
Hey Ginshun, You been on the Gin again. Hate is a very strong word. I've never met the guy to form an opinion eitherway. Ben has his opinion and is entitled to it like everyone else. Nothing wrong with questions you know, its the lack of answers that provides the problems..
OK, maybe hate was too strong a word. Lets just say that you are going to have a hard time finding anybody around here (aside from a couple TSD guys) that will say anything good about Steve Hayes. regardless, your best bet is still to go to the schools and see if you like what is being taught. Go to the Buj school too, see which one you like better and go to that one. Don't let what a bunch of guys thousands of miles away from you say matter as much as what you see. The basic argument that you are going to get is that SKH and his gusys will describe To Shin Do as his take on ninjutsu that he has modified for modern times. Bujinkan guys are going tell you that there is no reason to modify it, and possibley that SKH isn't even qualified to modify it anyway. Who is right is up to the individual, regardless of what the collective tells you. You be the judge.
pretty much the advice we all give out. regardless of what a person thinks go along try for yourself, if you like stay if not try another. Your path, your choice.
My personal thought was this guy was trying to start a flame war. "Don't feed the trolls!" :woo: If you want to base your beliefs off of another man's opinion you are pretty ignorant. If you access the matter for yourself than you will be sure that is the right decision for you.
I think your best bet would be to use the search function and read every last thing you could on him here before you stepped into a dojo. That is the same advice I would give someone asking to train at a Koga Kola dojo as well. If there is enough questions that are not answered, the defenders of a certain person keep changing tactics and you find a lot of doubt about someone's charecter, why bother sitting through a class? For that matter, what makes you think that most people when they begin can tell good from bad? You can find a lot of things on the internet by some of the frauds that are out there and to our eyes it is terrible. But there has to be some people that think it is good because they attract students with these clips. Do a search of what we say about Rick Tew. So if you are a begginer and can't tell good from bad, I think you should look into the charecter of the head teacher. And if they do things that we associate with frauds, then you should avoid them like frauds.
Grimjack said:- I'm going to play devil's advocate here. Let's say that a new student follows your advice and reads up on what has been said by various people here on MAP about SKH. Sure, he might find a few unpleasant comments etc. But if he's going to read up on SKH then he should read up on the Bujinkan too. And he'd find just as many unpleasant comments, right? Enson said:- Saru1968 said:- There's the best advice, right there.
But the way most of the members of a group react and deal with the issue tells you a lot. Take a look at the way certain groups have reacted to questions here. Do the representatives of the group change their story? Do they attack people that do not agree with them as being part of a conspiracy? Have they been proven to be wrong about something time and time again? Do they get nasty when someone says they don't believe them? Do they try to turn around and attack the questioner and make them look worse? Do they try to draw comparisons with things that are not relevant? Do they say things that are either false or give an impression that is not really true? Do they sue people that say bad things about them? If everyone who tries to defend a group seems to act that way on this board, then I would avoid them. That goes for any group. The Bujinkan has some hot- heads on line. But I think that most of the posters will not stoop to tactics like that.
I agree with you Grimjack, I do. I'm just trying to make the point that we can't base our decision of which martial art to practice or which organisation to join based upon opinions that we find on forums such as this one. There are threads on every forum going that will tell you "don't train with these guys" or "that guy's a fraud" and it's all conflicting. In fact you could even argue that reading online forums would be the worst possible method of deciding which style/school would be best for you. Really, the only thing a new student can do is visit all the groups he is considering, ask sensible questions when he does so and then pick the one his gut instinct tells him would be best for him.
Thats fine I guess, just make sure after the person gets done reading everything that MAP has to say about Steve Hayes, he goes over to bullshido.net and reads up on the Bujinkan. So are you refereing to how TSD members react to questions about Steve Hayes or how Bujinkan members react to questions about Hatsumi?
But all your ToShinDo experience gives you a good base with which to critisize it with right? Why is it that everytime somebody critisizes the Bujinkans training methods somebody from the Buj brings up how tough Nagato sensei is? If I remember correctly Nagato was a kickboxing champion and a reletively high ranking judoka before he ever started with the Bujinkan. Last time I checked judo and kickboxing both feature the alive training that bullshido touts as effective and Ben has other ideas about. If you really want to prove how tough Bujinkan training makes somebody, then you really should use somebody who has ONLY trained in the Buj as your example. Hey Ben, how do YOu think you would fair against David?
No, I do not fear the truth and I do not think that anyone who does an honest search will come away with the same impression about the Bujinkan as they do the Konigun. If they go to bullshido.com I think that they will be repulsed by the behavior of most of the posters and see that they have no tolerance for anything other than what they do. When you look at how some people react to questions, you can tell a lot about the art. After reading all that has gone on here, I don't think anyone will be training with the Koga kolas unless they are really stupid. Too many questions unannswed, too many repulsive tactics used, too many attacks on the questioners and too many statements made by people with no horse in the race.
