Hello, I'm doing personal research into the mind-body connection and martial arts seems like a good place to find out more. I have been sifting through, as best I can, fact from myth(I thought your recent discussion of chi was very interesting). I suppose my question is a more general one than about the existence of chi- what potentials do we have as human beings that we can actually unlock? I know of people breaking boards and bricks, the agility and gymnastic ability one can train for, I'm looking more for the physical manifestations of what a human can open up in themselves(beyond the breaking and agility). Maybe things that have to do with "chi" or just things that have to do with meditation. I do not know exactly what I am looking for- I think ordinary explanations for the seemingly extraodinary things- or the how to do these things. What could an individual realistically expect to "open-up" in themselves in regards to the mind-body connection? I am sorry that I'm not being too specific. Thank you for your time. Pete J.
You can turn the body into a natural armor set, able to withstand most common attacks You can achieve a higher logical functioning of the brain through meditation harmonizing the mind/body. There are those who can throw their chi, not a great distance but still enough to effect someone close by
Don't forget the effect that mind has on neuroendocrine activity - especially the hypothalamic-pituitary-adrenal axis. Probably THE major mind body link after the nervous system.
Can you back that up with verifiable scientific proof? I seriously doubt you can. Sadly, lots of people want to believe in the supernatural despite all evidence to the contrary. If I were you, I'd concertrate on the really really cool and interesting things our bodies can do if we put our minds to it and not go looking for fairies at the bottom of the garden.
Go find a skilled IMA guy, see what you see. Concentrate on the really cool things? Idiot, you're are talking to the wrong guy
I'll take that as a "No" then. *sigh* and there was I hoping you had access to a scientifically constructed and valid double blind placebo type trial. and yeh, i meant the "cool things" line for the person who had started the thread. sorry for not being clear.
I have seen some documentation as to chi and etc., give me a little bit and I'll see if I can find it. Fair enough
Cool, I'm always up for reading stuff like that. Though I'm guessing any evidence will be like the "evidence" that Homopathy works, i.e. deeply flawed. In the interests of share and share alike, you might like: http://www.physicsforums.com/archive/index.php/t-95128.html and: http://www.physicsforums.com/archive/index.php/t-118905.html just discussions really, but interesting.
Your argument is seriously flawed. Firstly, you're attempting to assert that science has proven non-existance (which as we all know, is generally considered to be impossible ). Secondly, you're asserting that science does not believe in things such as chi and the psychic phenomena, this is a misnomer spread by ignorance. And thirdly, you're probably doing this at a standpoint of having limited knowledge of what studies are actually out there on both sides. How much have you read concerning the other side of the argument? Personally I would recommend The Conscious Universe to get you started on the flaws of your logics. And don't bother down the lines of "it won't say anything to convince me", "it'll be like all the others: wrong", or any of the other whine-lines. If you don't want to read it, fine, don't. But don't start ranting about how it's a bad source of information if you don't want to.
Firstly: Please see the "Burden of proof" fallacy. If you are claiming Chi exists, it's up to you to prove it and not the other way round. http://www.nizkor.org/features/fallacies/burden-of-proof.html Secondly Science doesn't "believe" anything, that is exactly the point. It works on proof based on emperical evidence. Thirdly, I have never read a convincing study about "Chi". And i especially haven't seen a demonstration that can't be rationalised without appeal to the supernatural.
The mind-body connection has nothing to do with Chi. 心身一女, Shim Shin Il Yu. Mind and body in oneness.
What if 'chi' is the Eastern way of explaining conscious manipulation of the body's nervous system, bioelectrics, and minute muscle control? We can obviously control our gross systems, like breathing (I can prevent my lungs from flexing and hold my breath) and large muscles (make your bicep twitch without bending your arm). Controlling small muscle groups is harder (lift one eyebrow without moving the other, and do this on each side-I can only do this with my left eyebrow, for example), and controlling your pulse or digestive system is much harder. What is IMAs focus so much on their own physical selves, they develop more control over the subconscious systems of the body? This could be what directing chi is about. I can generate heat between my hands, without rubbing them together, heat that other people have felt. I've also made people's arm hair stand on end by passing my hand over it without touching them, and in a couple cases with my hands on either side of their arm, moving from the elbow to the wrist, have had them claim they can feel a bar moving through their arm between my hands. Chi? Magic powers? Power of suggestion? Static electricity? All of the above? One person might describe it as chi, another as magic, another as power of suggestion, another as static electricity. But something was happening. How it can be explained is up to the person doing the explaining. I explain it as chi, defined as my body's energy (encompassing all forms of it), acting under my direction. Take it for what it's worth.
1. As has been already pointed out the burden of proof is on those who assert that something is there. 2. No it isn't a misnomer. There is no real science accepted by the mainstream scientific community supporting the existence of pyschic phenomena or chi. There is a case to be made for looking further into such topics but to suggest the matter has been positively proved is rubbish. 3. Maybe some people are but for myself I can say I've looked at some considerable depth at many studies and have come to the undeniable conclusion that the scientific case for the existence of chi or psychic phenomena is pretty shoddy. I would hasten to add at this point that if people define chi or psychic ability in some sort of non-supernatural way i.e. as a pyschological aspect of body mechanics or a pyschological based intuitive ability I'm actually not sceptical that such things exist. I would however still contend that the claims relating to the effectiveness or 'powers' that people claimed to have gained from 'chi manipulation' or 'psychic ability' will consistently be proven to be incredibly exaggerated. The 'Conscious Universe' you are recommending is a pretty good book and it does have alot of sources in it but as usual its got its fair share of flaws (i.e. ignoring the dubious nature of some of the researchers) and Rand's retort to the Randi test is pathetic. It also seems to have been rather unconvincing to the scientific community at large but not to parapsychologists. You can either read that as mainstream science being unwilling to accept radical findings or the findings not being as convincing as para-scientific folk believe. Anyhow, for those interested but not in the mood to read an entire book just to respond to the topic here are some positive and some negative reviews of the book and its evidence: Positive Jessica Utts (Evaluators of the Stargate project and Professor of Statistics at the University of California): http://anson.ucdavis.edu/~utts/air2.html "It is clear to this author that anomalous cognition is possible and has been demonstrated. This conclusion is not based on belief, but rather on commonly accepted scientific criteria." Article in a Parapsychology Journal: http://findarticles.com/p/articles/mi_m2320/is_2_63/ai_58517910/pg_1 "About the only group to whom I would not recommend this book are the dogmatic skeptics for whom science is a closed enterprise. Radin's careful dissection of the skeptics' best arguments and his skewering of their popular myths about parapsychology will make them profoundly uncomfortable." Several Reviews at the bottom of Amazon: http://www.amazon.com/Conscious-Universe-scientific-Psychic-Phenomena/dp/0062515020 Negative Ray Hyman (Other Evaluator of the Stargate project, Professor Emeritus of Psychology at the University of Oregon and a Magician) http://www.csicop.org/si/9603/claims.html "When we examine the basis of Utts's strong claim for the existence of psi, we find that it relies on a handful of experiments that have been shown to have serious weaknesses after undergoing careful scrutiny, and another handful of experiments that have yet to undergo scrutiny or be successfully replicated." Kestral- Online Review/Comment http://www.shiftinaction.com/node/2872#comment-173 "For psi to be accepted, the research has to be exceptionally well controlled, replicated and done by researchers known to be of excellent character. This has not happened." Skeptical Reviews on his book and his lectures http://www.skepticreport.com/psychics/radinbook.htm http://www.skepticreport.com/psychics/radin2002.htm
Thanks to all!!!! Hello, this is Pete J. It has been a couple of weeks or so since I posted my question and am very pleased at the feedback and length of this discussion. I have not had time to go over things yet, but I thank you all who have posted so far- you have given me a lot to think about and further research. I hope this discussion has not reached its conclusion just yet, it seems to be going in very interesting directions. Thank you for your time, Pete J.
I feel you already know the answer to this. Both questions are linked together in a sense: Once an individual 'open-up', the potential that can unlock is great and unlimited. Though ... the classical saying implies: "Absolute power corrupts absolutely" regardless of the mind-body connection here. My two cents in.
Is it really? care to give us some examples of the "unlimited" powers that can be unlocked? I'd argue we are very limited in what we can do, due to all sorts of real and measureabel things.
