Hanminjok Hapkido

Discussion in 'Hapkido' started by SeoulSista, Nov 1, 2006.

  1. SeoulSista

    SeoulSista New Member

    Hey All,

    What are your opinions about this style of Hapkido? Does anybody know how large it is? IMO, it seems to have the Hapkido name, but uses the KSW form of hyungs.

    Also, does the World Kido Hapkido Association govern all forms of Hapkido? Or just Hanminjok?

    Thanks.
     
  2. Choiyoungwoo

    Choiyoungwoo Guest

    hmj hkd is just in sun seo's version of ksw aka "in sun seo incorporated"

    he needed to used a different name to avoid copyright issues with wksa and to attempt to prevent obvious conflicts with in hyuk suh, his brother. I am sure there are other reasons as well. he(seo) and the hmj hkd org govern nothing but thier own system, but I am positive they would love to have the hkd world thinking that they govern it all.
     
  3. Thomas

    Thomas Combat Hapkido/Taekwondo

    As a member of the ICHF (Cheon-tu Kwan), we fall under the auspices of the Hanminjok Association as well. We can attend seminars and his schools are open to us. As an instructor (as a great many KSW and HKD people can attest to) GM In Sun Seo is amazing and it's quite an honor to be affiliated with him (and his cadre).

    My impression from my experiences with the organization is that it is intended to be a large umbrella organization for the Korean Kido Arts (much like Kuk Sool was in its beginning, before it became a more formalized and uniform style). They are open to Korean arts (Kido arts, not the TKD ones) and the HMJ association provides support in the forms of seminars, schools to train at, resources like the new book coming out as well as some videos, and rank recognition.

    GM In Sun Seo's background (see http://www.kidohae.com/about-gmseo.html for the English version and http://www.hmjhapkido.or.kr/ for the Korean version or see http://www.hapkidoforum.com/viewtopic.php?t=851 for some other info) was with Hapkido (1st dan from Choi Yong Sool in 1958) as well as with "Kuk Sool Won Hapkido" and "Kuk Sool Hapkido". Later, of course, he held high positions with the KSW. So, it isn't a surprise that they use KSW forms (and have made some new ones too). It shouldn't be a surprise to see a lot of similarities between KSW and HKD from this either. The nice thing about an umbrella organization is that you can still keep doing what you do in your own curiculua plus you are free to add in what you like from the HMJ. It's a pretty open organization.




    Check out http://www.hmjhapkido.or.kr/ for some info. Also, take a look at http://www.kidohae.com/ especially the interview located at http://www.kidohae.com/news-inter.html

     
    Last edited: Nov 1, 2006
  4. Choiyoungwoo

    Choiyoungwoo Guest

    As a member of the ICHF (Cheon-tu Kwan), we fall under the auspices of the Hanminjok Association as well.

    How exactly does that work? and why?
    what benefits does hmj provide to ichf?
    what does hmj offer to ichf that it doesn't already have?
    just curious
     
  5. JimH

    JimH Valued Member

    In Hyuk Suh took over the Kido,the Korean Governing body of Korean Arts and then Gave the leadership role to In Sun Seo,his brother.

    In Sun Seo was the Head of the Kido and in 1986,as head of the KIDO, he formed World Kido Federation which was set up in the US to be in control of all Korean Martial arts OUTSIDE of Korea.

    A couple of Years ago a coup took place and In Sun Seo was replaced by his brother as the head of the Kido.

    In Sun Seo was still in charge of the World Kido Federation and was in charge of all Korean arts outside of Korea.

    Hanminjok is In Sun Seo's HAPKIDO,specific, Federation.

    The ICHF is Under the World Kido Federation and under the Hanminjok /Hapkido side of the World Kido Federation.
    The World Kido Federation governs 31 styles of Korean Martial arts outside of the US.

    The World Kido Federation is still recognized as a Governing body under the Kido and Hanminjok is recognised as legitimate Organization under the World Kido Federation and under the Korean Kido.

    When one asks what does the ICHF get ?

    The ICHF gets a Korean 10th Dan recognized Figure head in GM In Sun Seo.
    The ICHF gets a link to Korea and the Korea Kido through the World Kido Federation and through the Hanminjok Hapkido specific.
    The ICHF members get a discounted availability to Dan ranking through the World Kido Federation/Hanminjok Hapkido which is the Outside representative of the Korean Kido.(so you have world recognized ranking)
    ICHF members have access to training under GM In Sun seo and to travel to Korea and or attand the seminars under In Sun Seo.
     
  6. SeoulSista

    SeoulSista New Member

    Ah, so it is legit? That's good news.
    The reason I posted the question is because I obtained a black belt in it, but I thought it was KSW because all the training and vocab was KSW. Since I live in Korea (and hardly speak the language) I didn't know there was a difference until I got my black belt certificate and it said HMJ-HKD. Only now am I realizing the variations in HKD and KSW....and it definitely raises more questions.
    Basically, I'm wondering where else in the world there are other dojangs because I plan to leave Korea next year and I don't want to start at a white belt again in another form. I found HKD and KSW dojangs, but no HMJ-HKD.
    What do you guys think? Better to start over or continue? So, far I love this style because of all the gymnastics and the weapons we can use. But just am not sure if this style is as reputable as KSW and the more well-known form of HKD.
     
  7. Choiyoungwoo

    Choiyoungwoo Guest

    That was a while back if I am not mistaken, correct?

    So Ki Do Hae is the official governing body (as a branch of the actual government) but due to the expanse of tkma outside korea the world ki do assoc was formed to "govern" TKMA outside of korea. Fine.

    Which brother, there are 5 suh/seo's one is a pharmacist and has little or no MA connection, In Suk Suh is dead, of the remaining 3 you can only be refering to in hyuk or in joo suh. I cautiously assume you are talking about In Joo Suh? In what way did a coup occur? why? how did in sun seo get that position wrested from him? How do you lose that position?

    so it's his flavor of hkd/ksw. fine.

    how are those two things different? and why would it need to be under both ?


    that sounds exactly like the statement that has been made by ISS and IHS for the last 25+ years about Ki Do Hae and KSW both?!?

    who decides that? Ki Do Hae? There are many groups recognised by KiDoHae and there is more than a few that are "recognized as a Governing bodies" who decides which one is in charge of what?

    where is the documentantion from the korean govt that supports these things?


    That quite a bit of stuff!?!? exactly how does all of that help the average student? and at what added expense? you mention discount dan ranking, does a dan ranking in ICHF cost LESS under HMJ HKD that it otherwise would? Please dont take these questions as anything other than sincere, I find this fascinating!
     
  8. MadMonk108

    MadMonk108 JKD/Kali Instructor

    I am thoroughly confused.
     
  9. ember

    ember Valued Member

    I have no idea. I know there are Kuk Sool dojangs in California that are not affiliated with WKSA, but I do not know whether they are HMJ-HKD. You do know you're still welcome in the Kuk Sool forum, right? :)
     
  10. Choiyoungwoo

    Choiyoungwoo Guest

    doesn't that open up hkd for a wide range of genercization, i mean it sounds like anything goes and it can be called hkd.

    For instance, it is well understood that HKD does not have hyung. By adding parts of hmj hkd's hyung ( which is KSW) is it still hkd?

    Where is the line drawn?? What is the definition of HKD in terms of content.
    does hkd have hyung or not. if a hkd school does use hyung, is it no longer hkd?
     
  11. MadMonk108

    MadMonk108 JKD/Kali Instructor

    I just knew some one was going to open the box.

    Oh well...here we go!
     
  12. JimH

    JimH Valued Member

    In Hyuk suh took over the Korean Kido to keep it alive,as no one else wanted it,Hapkido was splintering into many different organizations and federations as they followed the lead of Ji Han Jae who left the newly formed Kido in 1963.

    In Hyuk Suh appointed In Sun Seo as its leader and In Hyuk Suh took it back,as he felt his brother,In Sun Seo was spending too much time with the world Kido Federation and doing seminars,with less time doing Korea Kido business.

    What does being under the World Kido/Hanminjok ?
    Nothing

    What are the benefits ?
    They have been listed

    It costs members of the ICHF 25 dollars a year to be members of the ICHF,under the Hanminjok under the World Kido Federation under the Kido Hae.

    The only cost to memebers is the cost of seminars with GM in Sun Seo and Dan rankings from him,from the Hanminjok,from Workd Kido Federation and as recognized as such under the Kido Hae.(As said the World Kido is responsible for Korean arts,aside from TKD outside of Korea,but is under the Kido Hae)

    If one wants to read about Korea Kido Hae, to the World Kido Federation,to Hanminjok and the benefits please read the following:
    http://www.kidohae.com/news-inter.html
     
  13. Thomas

    Thomas Combat Hapkido/Taekwondo

    I think many Hapkido schools would "honor" your rank and provide some way for you to train with them and learn/adapt to the way they do things and eventually recognize your rank and/or provide some way for future promotion. At the very least, training in Hapkido under GM In Sun Seo's organization should imply that you have developed a good foundation of the art and its principles. Adjusting to a new school or Kwan shouldn't be a big problem. I learned IHF Hapkido in Korea and then when I returned to the states took up Combat Hapkido... my HKD foundation made it pretty easy to learn the differences and such and then being ranking in Combat Hapkido. I know of a lot of other people who earned dan ranks in one federation and then switched to another. If you love Hapkido, you should be able to find a school, even if not HMJ, to continue on with practicing the art of HKD.
    All the best!




    GM Pellegrini looks to GM In Sun Seo as his Hapkido instructor and as the background for our Hapkido side of the program (even though is different than "traditional" hapkido, the core is the same). The ICHF also has other sections (such as the ITA, IPDTI, and so on) that aren't Hapkido but still fall under our umbrella. For GM P it also provides another source of backing for his own training, development and ranking as well as opportunities for his students to follow i that way if they choose to explore more of the roots and "traditional" hapkido.

    The way I understand it is that the ICHF (Cheon-Tu Kwan) falls under the Hanminjok Association (because GM In Sun Seo is GM P's instructor) and the HMJ falls under the World Kido Federation (a larger umbrella for more arts than "just" Hapkido)


    That there is quite a question and I don't think anyone has a real answer for you. I think if you look at how Hapkido has evolved since Choi Dojunim's time, even just limiting it to the various lineages of Ji Han Jae, Myung Kwang Sik, Myung Jae Nam and the like, you have so many differences in expression of the art (although the core principles remain). Some Kwans have forms, some don't (for example, I learned hyungsae in Hapkido but most others don't). Once you get past the core priniciples and technqiues, I think there's a lot of flexibility in what is Hapkido (at least how it is defined by a lot of various people and federations).

    I think what GM In Sun Seo is doing is allowing the various Kwan that he approves and allows in to dictate how they run their own curricula and structure. He provides a means of rank recognition and opportunities for training, learning and sharing without trying to dictate what each separate Kwan will learn or do. Perhaps the more open approach will be a better way to try to bring Hapkido people together.

    It seems like there are a lot of people out there trying to enforce one particular way or "pure" route and that sure doesn't seem to be a good thing for unity in the Kido arts. I like to think GM In Sun Seo is onto something good.

    I sure am enjoying it! :D
     
    Last edited: Nov 2, 2006
  14. MadMonk108

    MadMonk108 JKD/Kali Instructor

    I wish TKD would take this route, and allow Gwan to once again re-emerge, rather than stifling individuality.
     
  15. Choiyoungwoo

    Choiyoungwoo Guest

    Well the bottom line is....

    ISS is teaching in an open environment so that virtually anyone can access the skills he offers if they are willing to pay the admittedly small fee to have access through the web of affiliation. which is fine..

    IHS is teaching the same exact stuff (in principle) in WKSA, but access is limited to members only, and only allows access through strict loyality and membership requirements.

    Which is better? that depends on who you ask.
    They both offer a legitimate link to TKMA/KDH,
    They both have a wealth of MA info and skill to offer.
    They both have tremendous influence in the KMA establishment in Korea, as well as around the world.
    They both are setting up a situation for thier children to inheiret thier "positions and power" in the future, (ISS has Scott, Steve & Sara deepely involved and IHS has Sung Jin & Sung Woo (Alex) heavily involved in WKSA)

    What's the difference?

    ISS has the ability through an open org, to influence a HUGE # of people and the business side of WKDF will have a much larger potential to profit in a relatively short period of time. Also , the freedom of open affiliation is very attractive. But, though it may exsist, there is no mandate for the sun bae/ hue bae relationship to sustain.

    IHS is limited to dealing only with members of his group, but has greater potential for control over the quality of what is taught and, as a consequence, a greater potential to keep technical standards high. The loyality requirements/closed environment lends itself to appear very cult like, yet there is an emphasis for the sun bae/ hue bae relationship to sustain.

    ISS's technical skill/knowledge/history I do not question. I simply don't trust him and I will not subject myself to his authority, even in areas where he is markedly more knowledgeable than I am.
     
  16. SeoulSista

    SeoulSista New Member

    Thanks for all of your information everybody. I really appreciate your input.
    Hmmmm....so the question I have to ask myself is:
    Do I wanna continue Hanminjok Hapkido for the next 8 months and possibly get my 2nd degree OR Should I start over in KSW and see how far I progress before I leave this crazy country. Dilemmas.
     
  17. klaasb

    klaasb ....

    You seemed to like the current school enough to stay and get your 1st dan. (which took you about a year, since you are in Korea) why not just stick with this school?

    Does the paper really matters that much to you?

    And you call Korea a crazy country?
     
  18. Choiyoungwoo

    Choiyoungwoo Guest

    I don't beleve this is accurate, ISS was required to step down from KiDoHae for a good reason and his brother was the next best choice. There was no coup.. Again the question is WHY did ISS lose such a prestigious position? He has never been one to give up power/position/or authority. I think there is more to this that meets the eye. Yes, I am probably over skeptical, but I have seen this shell game before and there is ALWAYS more to it than what THEY tell you.

    Sorry, don't mean to dwell on the negative but this doesn't add up.
     
  19. hapk1do

    hapk1do Valued Member

    All of these are nothing but rumors anyway... Among other rumors, one exists that alludes to In Sun Seo stepping down in order pursue other ventures within the Korean Martial Arts world. I would find that just as believable. Whether for profit or for progression, I really don't see why it would matter. In regards to profit, I doubt that you would pass up the opportunity to make money doing what you loved to do and, in the process, adding to the progression.

    Also, you mentioned your distrust with In Sun Seo. You trust who you trust, but I would say that there are many more so called Masters out there whose credibility should be questioned long before In Sun Seo's. I think that it would be inappropriate to name names, however, due to the fact that rumors abound and that regardless of this, they should be respected for their basic contributions to their students and the art.

    I would also like to note that In Sun Seo is one of the foremost respected individual Hapkido Instructors in the country of S. Korea and has played a major role in Government based martial arts programs. Attend the WKF championships and you will see what I mean when you see all of the government officials in attendance there.. Not to mention all the TKMS guys that just happen to be hangin around.. :D
     
  20. JTMS

    JTMS Valued Member

    Hi Choiyoungwoo,

    Sorry to correct you, but GM Seo's brother was not his succesor in the KidoHae. His sucessor is Grand Master Kim (current Korea Kido President). Grand Master Kim is the former student of Grand Master In Sun Seo.

    Ok are you ready for the big MYSTERY? The reason why Grand Master Seo is no longer president of Kidohae? The simple and honest answer is that he lost an election (by a narrow margin).

    Grand Master Seo was the Leader of Kidohae for 20 years, this is much longer than any other person in the history of the association. He turned the small government recognized org. into a huge prestigious one.

    At the end of the election Grand Master Seo was offered the position of chairman of Korea Kidohae. (He won the vote for this post) Grand Master Seo turned the position of chaiman down and started the Hanminjok Hapkido Association. (it is now larger than Korea KidoHae)

    I have been a follower and student of GM Seo fpr a long time now. I know for a fact that he has been blamed for things he has not said or done. He is very open and honest about the history of Kuk Sool and korean martial arts in general. (as well as his own family history).

    He does not offer up the BS that many marial arts leaders give like: I got all of this from my grand father, or I am descended from the Hwa Rang, or my master hid in a mountian 'til the end of WWII.

    Best wishes,

    J.B. Murphy
     

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