1. Does the Hapkido school where you train accept any and ALL students willing to pay and join? 2. Were you required to pay an initiation surcharge, a full year of fees (or MUCH more), buy a uniform, patches and or additional equipment immediately apon signing up? 3. Were you instructed to attend the school only at very limited specific times? 4. Have you been pressured to sign up for special costly Black Belt or Master's programs? 5. Are their significantly more students in the total population under 16 than over 25, and are there numerous black belts under the age of 16? 6. Are you required to grade for a higher rank every few months and does virtually EVERY student pass, regardless of skill? 7. Does the 'average" student require LESS than four years to grade through levels (10 + with increasing testing fees at each), to achieve a black belt? 8. Do the Hapkido students basically kick with the same motions as Tae Kwon Do practitioners? 9. Are the classes very large, your personal space small and one on one instruction (unless you pay for 'private' training) very limited? 10. Do YOU in your heart feel more like a revenue stream (the club uses an outside billing company for example), with a member number than an aspiring martial artist? BONUS QUESTION FOR EXTRA INSIGHT: Does the instructor claim unrealistic Dan Rankings in Hapkido and/or MORE styles for a person of their age? ***IF YOU ANSWERED A DEFINITIVE 'YES' TO FIVE OR MORE OF THESE QUESTIONS..YOU ARE PROBABLY TRAINING IN A HAPKIDO FAST FOOD CLUB, A MACDOJANG! Of course there could be some unusual exceptions. However, if you answered YES to eight or more of these questions, there can be no doubt. If you have any more questions which might help people to answer the basic question post away..
I've been thinking about this post since you put it up. It's really good to point out things that will tip students off that they have stumbled on a "bad school". I am impressed that there tare that many Hapkido schools in the artea that would warrant a "Watch Out List"! I have found Hapkido schools pretty hard to find (even in Korea!) Are there a lot of schools in your area... and how many "good" ones are there? Along the lines of "Things to Watch Out For at Hapkido Schools" (and other schools), check out the McDojo thread (pretty good) and I will tell you why I left my first Hapkido school in Korea. I was introduced to the school by the local Police Captain (who was friends with the master). The Master was fairly well-known in Korea and was quite an impressive teacher. My first class was really educational and I signed on for a month (and bought the uniform). After I paid, things changed: (1) The master stopped teaching, preferring to sit in his office and smoke or chat with buddies. (2) The Sabeomnim was really good but finally got sick of being left in charge of the school everyday for no pay, recognition, or break... (3) By the end of the month, classes were being conducted by Yellow and Green belts. At that point, I walked down the road and stumbled upon a new Hapkido dojang just opening up. I talked to the master and he recruited me in a strange way. He sadi "I respect your master but you can join me if you agree to my terms. We train twice a day... morning and night and you cannot miss class without my permission. You will work hard and I will be your teacher. Sometimes, the Sabeomnim will teach and you will respect him the same as me. The choice is yours but you must decide now." I joined and loved it.
I disagree with some of these, like this one. Why should a school discriminate against anyone who is willing to learn the art? I'm not sure what you mean by this. Do you think prospective student should have to pass some entrance examination before being allowed to attend class? A lot of people got their start in the martial arts when they were kids. In fact, most schools I'm aware of have larger childrens' classes than adult classes. I think that's fairly normal. Although I agree about seeing a lot of young black belts. That kind of puts me off. At my school, the quickest you can reach black belt is approximately 3 years. That's only for someone who attends class at least twice a week and does not struggle excessively with the techniques (and of course does not fail any of the belt testings). Considering that in many schools in Asia, you can get a black belt in a year, I don't think taking less than 4 years to get a black belt is a sign of a McDojang.
BSR wrote... <<Why should a school discriminate against anyone who is willing to learn the art?>> Its got nothing to do with discrimination, really. I've turned away students before. A couple that I can think of were because the people flat refused to bow (either standing or kneeling), due to their religious beliefs. And in spite of careful, lengthy explanation as to why its done and that it has got nothing to do with showing any sort of subservience or any sort of worship to any deity, they still refused. We respectfully parted ways at that point. I've turned away other students because I felt that their intentions were not in the right place. Still others, because they simply refused to lead a reasonably healthy lifestyle -- drugs and too much drinking dont win people points with me. Mike Burnett, Sa Joo Shin Koo Hapkido Yoo-Sok-Kwan Lincoln, NE
Haha, I already knew I was at a Mcdojang, but i took the test anyways and had a perfect score. That is why I am going to a Uechi Ryu school when my contract is over.
Uechi Ryu -- now there is a style that generally trains incredibly hard. Rigorous body conditioning, etc. Why is it that demanding training is accepted and acceptable for one style (like Uechi-Ryu) and not for another (like Hapkido or TKD)??? Why is it that someone who teaches an Okinawan style of Karate in a traditional manner is respected... and when someone tries to do the same thing with Hapkido or Taekwondo, they're called barbaric?!?
Here are some additional quiz questions that you might need to look out for. 1. Does more than half of your curriculum come from what your instructor learned from video tapes. 2. Did your instructor go away for 4 weekends and then come back with a fifth Dan in Hapkido matching his 5th dan in Tae kwon do. With no previous experience with Hapkido 3. Does the instructor say that Hapkido is Tae kwon do and Aikido combined. 4. Does the instructor say that Hapkido requires very little conditioning, and all you need to know is the techniques to be able to defend yourself. 5. Does the instructor claim to have designed the secret Navy Seal special forces fighting style that is so secret that they don't mention his name on any government website, and he was actually just a reservist in the coast Guard. 6. You learn the all of the techniques you need to know for your first belt in the first day, and you do them just as good as the black belts in the class. 7. You never stretch your muscles or joints in class, and never are taught how. Half of the students are out with sore joints half the time. 8. There are Bruce Lee and Chuck Norris Movie posters all over the walls. 9. Everyone in the Dojang laughs when your instructor trys to say Korean words. 10. The instructor claims that they are teaching an unchanged style that is over 2000 years old used by the ancient Silla warriors. I could probably go on but I think that should be enough.
Not every student should be accepted!! Age requirement..why? First: No person under the age of about 13 should be introduced to small joint manipulation. Their joints are NOT fininshed forming yet and repeated twisting can result in a lifetime of pain and misery..especially if the school lets ANYONE join and participate. It only takes an eyeblink of time to require a right handed person to learn how to write with their left. Second: It is one thing to expose a child to cheezy punching and kicking in some Macdojang, but joint manipulation, pressure point knowledge and Ki development are NOT suited to imature young people who's understanding of consequences are suspect. It is one thing when a child bloodies a school mates nose in a scrap over a soccer ball, it is entirely another matter when when joint dislocations and nerve damage could be the result. Solution; Send young people to a high standards Judo or the Korean version Yudo club, until they are mature enough to treat techniques with the respect that they require. They NEVER give black belts to students under 16. Adult screening of students. Why? Knowledge is power..not ALL people should be permitted to acquire it. However, someone with the right moral character could always open up a chain of schools marketed directly at gangsters, gangbangers and druggies..now THAT is a market just waiting to be served! Minimum four Years to black belt! Why? I was going to specify five but the average career of a Hapkido hobbiest is far less then that, so I took a year off, so as not to appear too hard core. Three years training two - three times per week - it is impossible to achieve any type of physical, mental, emotional never mind spiritual integration. Black belt is NOT an END to people's journey in Hapkido, but it must PREPARE them for much more difficult tasks ahead. Just because one can receive a black belt in one year at some "magic" Dojang does not make a three year term any less ridiculous. I tell my potential students that if you want a black belt and that is why you are going to train..go to the martial arts supply store and buy one for $20. It is cheaper in every way and you can show it off to all your friends. Don't forget to have it engraved with your name and DAN Ranking, extra $30 - $50 depending on how much writing you can't understand you want on it. I stand by ALL of my quiz questions.. Another good indication of a Macdojang is the instructors uniform, (forgot about that). If it has more in common with a fireworks display or the flag of your country than plain black and/or white..you need to call the fashion police and walk out the door..
Re: Not every student should be accepted!! Hmmm So what you are saying is 3 years to black belt is ridiculous. People put too much stock in the words "black belt" it's just another colour, another flag in the road. At the end of the day it's ability that counts not the length of time trained. P.s. I run a large class 30+ in a small hall... sue me for being popular! McDojo??=>Training 2 sessions a week for a year = £40/$62 CAD. Theres now a horrible trend, like in all things, when popularity comes, people cry "sell out" or "McDojo"!! Sometimes it's unwarranted you know!
Ha Tosh! I knew it, your running a McDojang! I don't understand how people can fall for this claptrap!!!
Shadow Warrior: Even though it may seem a bit conservative in view, I have to say I loved your last post here. Different schools may do it differently but I agree pretty much with everything you said with one exception: I don't think there should be a mandatory time requirement of 4 years for black belt. I think it should depend on training hours, dedication, etc. However, as you are talking about YOUR OWN SCHOOL, I see no problem with that. In this way, you can be assured that your blackbelts will meet your expectations and you will be asured of their dedication. Now, if you were to ask me how long to reach black belt... I would have to say at least 2.5 to three years for a student who comes to every class (doubles sometimes) and works hard. So I guess a round figure of 4 years isn't that unrealistic. I do think the "internal" factors of a black belt candidtae are more important than the physical. A student may "learn" all of the moves in a year, BUT they may not be ready to use them as they should. 4 years to black belt? Not a bad estimate. As for denying students the right to join a school, my reply is "It's my school and I choose who I teach OR not teach". If I had my own club or were head instructor, I will retain the right to deny training to anyone I choose. Even now, as "senior instructor" in Taekwondo, my recommendation to the master of not keeping a student would be honored.
Tosh You are teaching ITF TKD not Hapkido! I received my ITF black belt directly from General Choi HIMSELF at a testing here in Ontario in the mid 70's with less then TWO YEARS training. I used it for wallpaper! That is like saying beer has the same alcoholic content as single malt scotch. Just don't be telling your students who received their black belts in three years that they can fight outside of a tournament setting. Their demise will be on your head...This is exactly what this thread is about..you are involved in a recreational hobbiest club with Macdojang overtones. If you make this clear to your students there will be no problems later. I have NEVER promoted a student to black belt in my club with less than 2000 hours of training time. This is my standard. I do not expect anyone else to pay ANY attention, unless they are curious to know why my students can do what they can do!
well ofcourse when your started out in hapkido or any type of martial art you would need your tobok and thats about it Sure you can buy from a different place but our toboks have Hapkido in the back in korean letters. I mean there are really certain things that every school has that a mc dojang has too, but seriously there are alot of mc dojang schools that claim to be 5th dan and up and have no regestration in korea as a 5th dan and up. Most people in USA are like 1st dans and just open their school because they can do that in america the government will not get you for that
Paper is only paper! Credibility in all of its diversified forms must be considered in the quest to identify MacDojangs. Who would believe ALL of the requirements for 7th degree under the Korean Hapkido Federation for example? In the province where I live, that person would be a registered accupuncturist, massage therapist, herbalist. They would also be a master swordsman, expert in short medium, long stick, cane, belt, rope, rock thowing, archery and capable of dynamic KI demonstrations..these accomplishments in addition to ALL of their other Hapkido, free fighting and teaching skills..indeed..It would take a person many lifetimes to be capable of being an expert in ALL of these things. I have asked many 'new' generation 7th degrees how they achieved this remarkable diversity of skills..some had good knowledge of pressure points(but never tried accupuncture), and/or a rudemantary understanding of massage, and/or a smattering of herbal information, non had deep knowledge of each and every area. Most of them had NEVER even been introduced archery from horseback, even if they had a few hours practice with the Korean bow at some seminar...or been in any dynamic live blade demostrations, never mind a live blade sparring session. They told me that you can get requirement 'waivers' for the right circumstances. They were never very forthcoming as to what these circumstances might be. There is only one conclusion which can be deduced from this ..NOT MANY new Masters with 7th degree or higher were EVER capable of passing ALL of the listed test requirements..so why adopt them? We should keep in mind that Master Choi himself could NOT produce ANY Dan or Teaching certificates himself..The ONLY reason people paid him so much to teach them, was the man could and did beat the snot out just about everyone, (students and foes alike). To observe the teacher's students and see true dicipline, fitness, technical Hapkido and free fighting skills as well as a positive attitude to others, will tell you much more about a school than how much a teacher payed for degree ranking in political and or monetary currencies. The partronage of buddies is as rampant in the US as it is in Korea. One might ask why so many of the second generation Hapkido Masters are today running their own independent schools/organizations? Why are there so many Hapkido Kwans? Some of these "NEW" Kwans being granted in the past few years were chartered to people who can not even trace their personal training roots directly to Korea. The standards in Korea have followed those in other places..down..black belts in one two years are common. (One of my students earned his in eighteen months at a well know Kwan headquarters when he was there three years ago teaching English). We must be sharp eyed and keen to ask the instructors details about their own personal history and who passed what skills onto them. Primary free fighting skills are the real currencies of Hapkido. Without this basic application of diversified technical skills, what is being practiced is NOT Hapkido within the context Master Choi and others emphasized. Look at the skill sets of an "average" student to gleen clues as to the quality of the school on the continuum of quantity vs quality. Even a high Dan ranking from Korea is no guarantee of learning practical Hapkido! Use your eyes and brian to apply the essence of the Mac Dojang quiz..
Like anything that tries to describe the nature of something, this list should be taken as a guideline, but not definitive. I think all of the points people are making are good but there will always be exceptions to the rule. I received my 1st dan when I was under 16 as did several other students at my school. Even after an almost 4 year hiatus from training (due to moving around a lot), I still had better technique and power than many of the people I have trained with since. One was certainly a McDojang...it was a university McDojang. I think that university programs are very susceptible to McDojang-ality. Students are only there for 3-4 months, then have a 1-3 month break and are probably just filling a phys ed requirement anyway.
Other questions I would ask: (1) Does the master, instructors and students put other schools and styles down? (2) Does the master and instructors brag about theirs being the best style, or the 'purest' style, or claim to be the only style that does such and such? (3) Do you find the master, instructors, and students full of themselves, instead of HUMILITY? If you answer "yes" to these, you may wish to train elsewhere...
I agree with almost everything. As far as what Shadow Warrior said in <<Age requirement..why?>> I agree. We only have one student under 15 and he is 11. An exceptional 11 year old. We only take students after they have a "try out" and see what their mental status is. We have the "model psycho killers" come in all the time and want to learn. Not going to happen. Black belt before 16? No way! you're right. We run a very tight traditional school. I teach exactly how I learned in Korea. We have a great time though too. BIG difference between and "instructor" and "teacher". Just to let you guys know about our seminar (again). November 14 & 15. It's listed on our website located at the link below my signature. I like this forum, I love Hapkido. (not as much as my wife though)
As someone who never has trained in Hapkido I am curious now... I have never been to a Hapkido school, but, I have met a hapkido black belt some time ago... I know that we all want there to be responsibility in the arts. I would have to say that in general, instructors are as good as their maturity. I have seen 1st degree black belts who are more mature and better teachers than 5th dans... I always take senior ranking with a grain of salt. I don't have any problem with a 40 year old being a 7th dan. As long as he didn't start 5-10 years ago...But, everyone is different when it comes to their dedication. We only require a Doctor to attend about 12 years of school before we allow them to fully practice their skills on the human body...Are they experts? No...do most if not all Doctors continue their education and learning, of course...I would hope it is the same for most if not all martial artists... I got my black belt in 1991...and thought I had arrived at the age of 19...(insert snickers from older and wiser folks here)...Now, at 31...I look back and see how little I really knew and understood...Today, I know more...I understand more...but, it has nothing to do with how many stripes I put on my belt or what certificates I hang on the walls...It's in your head and in your heart... I guess I can see the whole McDojo dilema...And I do know from personal experience that anyone can join any number of organizations and be cross ranked or "promoted" in another art for time in... You can give a man/woman a rank and a certificate...and that's all they will ever be... If you give that man/woman wisdom and knowledge...those certificates and rank recognitions start meaning less and less... At least that's the way it is for me... PS... I would love to find a Hapkido school in Central Ilinois...anyone know of a great teacher? Thanks, Aaron
Nice post, Bulldog... For me, something I look for in other black belts and instructors is how they act in the dojang. In my opinion, you should work hard no matter what your rank is. I hate to see senior black belts sitting in the back of the room just watching all of the time without actively participating. (By actively participating, it can be verbal and/or physical, as long as they are sharing their wisdom) I think it is very important that the senior ranks share their knowledge with students. If you train in GM So-and-So's dojang but are actually taught by some of his 1st and 2nd dans... you shouldn't really claim to be GM So-and-So's student, should you? As an instructor, whether I am teaching or not, I hold my position in the ranks and train as hard as I can evry class, whether I am directing or following the class. It's important to rememebr that no matter how long you've been training or what rank you hold that you must keep practicing hard and remember that there is always something you can learn from anyone...
GM So and So!!!! I like this and agree whole heartedly!!! Posted by Thomas <<As an instructor, whether I am teaching or not, I hold my position in the ranks and train as hard as I can every class, whether I am directing or following the class. It's important to rememebr that no matter how long you've been training or what rank you hold that you must keep practicing hard and remember that there is always something you can learn from anyone...>> I teach ALL of my classes. From time to time, I do have the 1 Dans and up do the warm-ups for their leadership training but, the rest of the class is my responsibility. I feel that all the GM so and so's are so grossley overweight because they feel they don't need to train anymore. WRONG!!! We need to be great followers in order to be good leaders. Following our own examples. Preach what you practice.
