Calculus and the Bujinkan

Some are going to say that this is a presumptious post, but this is a dojo of learning about Hatsumi-sensei's art, and this needs to be said....

To be honest, when I read some of the more recent posts, I chuckle a little. The reason is that I know the sophisticated level of thinking that some of the posters use to "make sense" of this morass called the Bujinkan. My hat is off to them.

However, I chuckle because they have just enough knowledge to know what they are talking about, but just not enough knowledge to actually see what Soke is trying to accomplish.

Let's use an analogy. Soke has said before that he is teaching at a PhD level. Now, when I first translated that statement, I thought I knew what Soke was talking about. As someone NOW enrolled in a PhD program, I could not agree more with his statement, and I could not believe the way in which I misinterpreted what he had said. It wasn't a "misinterpretation" of the words or even the facts. It was a misinterpretation of the essence of what he was telling us all, if we (including myself) had been listening....

In Mathematics, up through (and including) the Masters' level, students learn to apply other people's theorems and maxims and rules. 1+1=2. If A=B and B=C then A=C. And so on.

At the PhD level, however, the students' job is to create the theorems and maxims via proof. The laws are already "set" and already exist (in the universe). Before someone actually PROVED that A=C, it already did (universally speaking). It merely took time and effort for others to show that what was universally true, yet unknown, was, in fact, true.

So Soke has come along and stated something quite profound: "All mathematics is addition."

Some of these posters, as Master's students applying for a PhD program, say, "Well, I see that this is true for subtraction--it's the addition of a negative number. It's true for multiplication as well--it's just repeatedly adding numbers." This thinking continues through a lot of math concepts that they've studied.

Then they come to calculus.

They hem and haw about how they "know calculus" and have spent a lot of time understanding what calculus is. And then they state that they don't like the way that some teachers explain calculus, or how the way that they teach people how to solve calculus problems takes too long and that there are more efficient ways of solving the problems. They post things like, "Do people even know that the way people are explaining calculus is INEFFICIENT - or is this a new concept for people here..."

People at a high school or Bachelor's level read what they are saying, and start to think, "Hey, he's got a point. I'm going to start thinking about calculus the way that guy talks about it."

The trouble is: They still don't recognize that calculus is ALSO merely addition.

And by insisting on their view of calculus, they *MAY* be taking people away from seeing what Soke wants them to eventually see: "That all math is merely addition."

Other people have tried to do the same thing over the past 30 years. Some of them had even BETTER teachers than some of these individuals (heaven forbid!).

Yet, in the end, those people and all the people who followed their advice are oblivious to what Soke is teaching. They all share a view of calculus--and it's a reasonably good view that will allow them to solve a lot of pr0bl3m5.

Still, in the end, the view is incomplete. And it is *NOT* what Soke is teaching as the way to view calculus.

-ben

 

OK. I followed that right up until:

and then you lost me.

However, I'm not particularly surprised, as I'm very much learning at a primary level at the moment (9th kyu)

Sounds really interesting though, and maybe in 10 years I'll come back and re-read this, and say "Does Ben even know that the way he's are explaining calculus is INEFFICIENT - or is this a new concept for people here..."


or maybe I'll say "ahhhhhhhhh, how right he was".
Either way - here's to the learning process.

 

hehehe.

I may be being presumptuous but...

given that the following exerpt from Wikipedia's entry on Laplace Transforms is fundamental to the proof of the theory...

...and thus the Laplace Transform, which is an applied branch of calculus, contains at its core the proof that calculus is ultimately reducible to additon...

(thinking about it, it would be hard, if not impossible, to program an ODE solver into a digital computer if the world was any other way )

any second year undergrad in engineering will be aware of this and will be expected to intuitively grasp that all maths is addition; equally, anyone who has applied Laplace Transforms to real world problems would go beyond intuitively grasping this point, to knowing it through experience to be true.

I can only conclude that it could perhaps be helpful for prospective mathematics students thinking of embarking on the arduous living hell that is a phd (only 24 months to go, not that i'm counting down the hours or anything :bang: ), if they did a summer course in engineering maths.

Then they could then develop their understanding of where abstract, theoretic proofs will meet the complex dynamic systems which society has charged the engineers to both harness and utilise.

 

So he's technically your supervisor but actually he's too busy with the administration of his own work to give you any real help apart from vague suggestions (most of which hint that he's actually forgotten what it is you're meant to be doing.)

Occasionally you need to see soke for guidance but he's really difficult to get hold of and eventually when he does reply to your request you discover that he's not free for another 6 weeks or has gone on holiday.

Most of the help that you get will come from other people in your small under-funded dojo who are in roughly the same position that you are and sympathise because they never got much help from soke either.

In the end, any good work that you manage to complete is credited to soke's good guidance despite the fact that it was you (with lots of help from random other practitioners and good natured senior martial artists) who pulled the crazy ideas out of the fire.

Is that what you mean by "like a Phd"?

 

We aren't bitter at all, are we?

 

So why is Soke teaching PhD applications to everyone at the same time?

 

Every professor needs good TAs, of course; and Soke can only spread himself so thin.

This does point up the need for Bujinkan instructors to develop good relationships with shihan who can keep them "on course".

 

Um... Well, he's a PhD and those who are training with him are expected to be pretty high level. Doesn't mean that people who are not a pretty high level cannot get something from training with him. It just means that you shouldn't expect Soke to teach grade school level just because you show up at Hombu. He does, of course, provide individual attention to people. I've seen him "correct" simple things for students, but in general, he will do a technique to the student and have them feel what it should feel like. When their eyes go wide, Soke agrees!

But if you want something NOT a PhD level, that's what other Shidoshi and the Shihan are supposedly for....

-ben

 

God, I was hoping I'd never see fighting equated to mathematics. Ever. That first post was both confusing and intimidating. Clearly, I've taken too many hits to the head in the ring and slams on the mat to have any idea what anyone is talking about.

I mean, are you saying that the way Hatsumi teaches is most appropriate for people who have been studying hard for a long time? If so, that goes without saying. I mean, I'd get a lot more out of training with Yoshida than a kyu with six months of training. What does that have to do with PhDs or calculus? You confuse me.

I think the threadstarter just wants to brag about having more education than the rest of us. Bothersome

 

And you, me. That part should have been clear, but we still got a question such as this:

Originally Posted by TigerDude
So why is Soke teaching PhD applications to everyone at the same time?

I answered the question.

READ the post, then THINK about the various threads (which I happen to mention several times in my original post).

READ THOSE POSTS.

Think again.

Stir.

Bake.

-ben

 

Way to be a condescending *****

 

Add a dollop of whipped cream (the real stuff, not the stuff that comes in plastic bowls in your freezer section)....

Eat!

HINT: IT'S AN ANALOGY!!! (Please see the phrase: "Let's use an analogy." in my original post. Thanks.) :bang:

-ben

 

lol thing is i could be very wrong, but the way i see it ben is making a very important point,BUT to come right out with it would cause way to much of a whooha.its called being tactful, we have to work the analogy out for ourselves and thus avoiding directly upsetting anyone,well most people anyway lol

 

Oh yes!

So in ninjutsu terms... Soke may correct your technique one year, then next time you train with him, he'll turn it back the way you were doing it originally!

 

I'm far from a speaker for all of the Bujinkan or Genbukan, and I am DEF far from a speaker for all of ninpo practioners, but considering the flak everyone in ninpo systems have been getting lately, this post is exactly what we didnt need......

Edit: The above seemed a little harsh. I think that your post is coming off as "you dont understand what we do and you never will so i'm right and you're wrong". I know that you are not trying to sound that way, but in all honesty, do people really need to add more fuel to the fire? Just let it go already, people dont like ninjers, and no amount of internet crusading is going to change that.

 

if the thread were on any other forum, i'd agree, but it isn't.

this is the ninjutsu forum and we haven't been crusading anywhere...

yet, for the last few months we have suffered a succession of people drop by and tell us what we do is not the way they way would things...

and they they dropped by and told us again...

and again...

and...

{there was supposed to be an ASCII-art figure of a stick figure hanging from a birch here, but the white space kept getting removed which kept his head on his shoulders, so you'll have to just imagine it instead }


the circular nature of the debate from both sides has all but sucked my will to live...

...oh yeah, final NB. i think ben was talking to people inside the art, as opposed to outside

 

K, well that is true.... But still, you get my point, ne?

 

i can see how the post might not be what everyone wants to hear, but thats never a bad thing.

i'll be honest, i had to read it through a few times to follow what i *think* ben was trying to impart...

(aside: no disrespect here ben, but alot of that was due to a bit of leap somewhere in the middle, you were talking about how you re-evaluated your interpretation of soke's statement about teaching at phd level and shared your understanding that over time you came to see a flaw in your initial perception of the intent behind his words, but you didn't explicitly state what that flaw was before introducing the analogy, or what it was that evolved your appreciation... i'm guessing it has something to do with simplicity...? )

...but yes, Banpen, i do see what you are saying, my only real reservation is that there are many things we can all do to improve the image of ninpo practioners, but i don't believe that restricting the conversations we have in our own virtual space, for fear of other people looking in and not understanding, is a route we should even consider walking down.

 

Oh, I realise it is an analogy, but it doesn't make sense. I asked for clarification, but you blew me off like a real jerk. Forgive me that english isn't my 1st language and I don't get every subtle nuance and comprehension is difficult for me. Do you want to try to read all of my Chinese papers and understand them perfectly first time through? Is difficult, I think because that's probably not your first or primary language. I try the best I can, but sometimes it is impossible, so I asked for clarification why you use PhD analogy then I provide what I gleaned from it as point of reference. Maybe I'm not smart enough to get it, but you don't have to be such an elitist in dealing with me.

So yeah, I guess you get to feel better from me because I cannot read everything 100% fluent, but I did read all posts and think about it. So, before you ask me so very politely to "THINK", understand that already have I done so.

And what the hell is with the cooking reference? God, you're confusing. Maybe is a good thing you're not an English doctoral student...