(I put this in the TKD forum mainly for TKD practitioner views but I don't mind if anyone plays... the more the merrier) Let's say you are attacked by someone who comes at you with a knife using the classic icepick hold. What would you do? Would you use any (or all) of the following the techniques shown in the pictures? Have you taught these or been taught these techniques? If so, what do you see as the strengths and weakness of them? Thoughts? Pictures sourced from http://www.hvcn.org/info/oring/selfdefense.html and http://www.hvcn.org/info/oring/blocking.html
the problem with these blocks is that they do not address the true nature of the icepick stab IMHO. the icepick is usually (source LAPD assault stats) a short repetitive close in attack. the long swinging arm seen it the first pic never exists.. the arm swings more like a piston short and over and over... unless a strike is simultaneous with the block the repetitive motion of the stabber will continue... the block will fail as the blocking arm itself is stabbed until the body and head are reached... often then grab and icepick stab pulling you into them.... these blocks shown.. are silly.... the second one showing a kick..I'd argue the last thing you want is to lose your stability... vs a knife distance is king.. so is running away.. all your weight on one leg is TOO risky I think... anyway.. those are my quick thoughts.. I am sure I missed something somewhere... are you posting these because you like or hate this approach? what’s your motive sir?
Every technique is gonna have a "but what if" factor its what you do after the block that makes a defence efective.
Funnily enough i got my girlfriend to practice this with me at full speed the other day using an ice pop (stop sniggering) I found that none of the blocks or arm catches that i had learnt could be applied without getting stabbed a few times. I found that the best defence was a front kick to body. keeps them at a distance and gives you the space to run away. You could always have you hands up in a "surrender" position, which would make the kick a very good suprise attack.
Ideally, I'd turn tail and run away, but for the sake of the conversation . . . I would try to intercept and receive the attacking limb and control the limb either by grabbing or trapping it. Beyond that, I don't know. Counterattack? Probably. Run? Probably right after the counterattack. No. Nor would I incorporate it into my training. Yes, I was taught these types of techniques in TKD. The first problem with the techniques is the usual . . . knife is a concealed weapons . . . won't see it coming till it's stuck in you . . . . yadda yadda yadda The next problem is the force-on-force type of block. I really see why chinese styles advocate the opposite. If you miss with that block, the knife is going right in your arm. Probably not the worst place to get cut, but if you get cut nice and deep in the arm, you are going to bleed to death. At the very least, you'll be going into shock, and won't be able to further defend yourself. Also, if you look, in both the first and third pictures (second one isn't the same type of attack, so I won't comment), those people don't have control of the arm with the knife. All the attacker has to do is slide his arm down. What's the deal with the third one anyway? Doesn't really get the point of the defense across. That person had to get all the way from standing in front of dude with knife, had to block knife, push knife arm up, step around knife dude, and insert leg behind knife dude's leg. It's like showing a picture of a guy with a knife on the floor, bleeding, and some guy standing over him, and labelling the picture "effective knife defense in wing chun." Or some rot like that.
The high rising block is a good basic defense against this downward attack, however you cannot stand still and execute it. The guy executing it in long stance with his other hand chambered at the waist is most likely going to get seriously hurt in the next .5 of a second. If you're going to block the attacking arm in this manner then you should try and gain control of the knife as you're now well within range of the follow up slash/stab. Throwing a distracting shot as you do so, such as a palm/punch/elbow to the face, is strongly advised, rather than just trying to go straight into whatever lock you might be thinking of following up with. Personally if I was blocking with the high rising block, I'd try stepping through 45 degrees to the outside of the attacker while also grabbing the attacking arm with my other hand. From here spinning through with the other leg you'll find yourself on the outside of the attacker with both hands controlling the hand with the weapon in. The natural flow of the weapon will be into the attackers stomach or chest.
I'd suggest visiting http://www.dogbrothers.com/ and watching the 'Die less often' promo at the top of the page. A warning, it contains some graphic images of victims of knife assaults. This shows the true nature of knife attacks. As to Thomas' questions. I don't think I would do any of the things in your pictures. If somebody tried to attack me in the 'classical' icepick assault I think I may step out of the way and let them hit themself in the groin In reality, I would attempt to 'Die less often' In a situation where an equaliser wasn't available and escape not an option, I would seek to isolate the weapon whilst wrenching, kneeing, head-butting, whatever was available. There is always the trap and percussive strike approach as taught in Silat, I have had a reasonable degree of sucess with that in Knife v Unarmed sparring. The problem there is, they only need one, unless I really luck out I need quite a few.
IMHO the rising block shown in the first pic is an incorrect application as they are too far away and have let the attack develop. I've always felt that for rising block to be at all effective you have to step in close to the opponent and stop the arm before it starts to descend, or at the very start of its motion. You could then potentially continue the motion of the arm round in a kind of "upset hooking block" to attempt control of the attacking arm whilst countering The natural follow up would probably be a head butt, elbow, something similarly close range In any case, as KMguy says, the single strike doesn't really happen in real life, and I believe that this ice pick attack is also actually comparatively rare: thrusting and slashing are much more likely. Someone with better access to stats on attacks please correct me on that if I'm wrong? Mitch
I've been shown those blocks from various styles (Excluding the 2nd one). I think in reality it's just a basic building block. You'd advance into something much more effective later, when you have a good foundation of mechanics to build on. However, when I was showed these techniques, I was showed to block and counter simultaneously (Such as an eye gouge, throat strike, groin kick, thrust kick, etc.), and then do a throw that rips out the rotator cuff in the shoulder. The throw I'm talking about is a common throw you see. Bring your hand and touch your ear, now keep rotating your arm behind your back back. It's that throw. (Sorry I don't know the name of it). Except, in order to get the rotator cuff rip, you need to adjust the angle of the arm. Take your hand and touch your ear again, now adjust your arm so your hand is pointing at about a 45 angle away from your body. That's the angle you need if you now take the arm and rotate it behind the body. I've seen the 2nd block, but haven't learned it. Doesn't look very effective to me. What if the guy is coming in with a huge amount of force? You may get a solid kick off, but chances are you just knocked yourself off balance. The guy may have enough time to stab you again or just fall on you and stab you anyway. Also, when you're chambered and you got a nice solid block, what's to keep the guy from just punching you with the other arm or kicking you in the stomach/groin and then stabbing you again? Btw, I don't do TKD, I do Kung Fu.
You know, I use to feel that the rising block had no practical application with regards to knife defences, but have changed my views a little. The changed occured after seeing the viewing of the footage surrounding the killers of Stephen Lawerence (RIP), where it showed them with a big (10 inch) blade and running forward, circling the knife over head and round/down to stab, and to be honest, in a flinch response this block could actually save your life against something like this. The static nature of how the block is taught in most schools is no good, but utilzed with TKD's fire/water principles (which of course changes the block from static to flowing) makes it much more practical. It would be my block of choice against a knife, but in the situation described above I feel it has benefits. Stuart
Thanks for the nice replies (and links, too). My "motives" for posting this are pretty simple. I was doing some internet searching for Chungdokwan TKD history and stumbled accross the site linked above. I took a look at the "self defense" section and some of the others and saw this pictures. I thought they'd make a good conversation starter. Probably 10 years ago, I learned some pretty similar ones in the TKD system I was in. Once we added some power, resistance, movement, and more realistic intent, I (personal opinion) felt that they didn't work well. This was one of the things that sent my instructor and myself looking into cross training to make our own defenses more practical for us. Combat Hapkido initially filled our needs but even then we felt the need to refine a bit and modify (as did the ICHF). I would say we are still exploring and experimenting to see what works best. So, I'm looking for any contributions here (with the pics as a starting point) dealing with TKD knife defences. Could be a fun bit of learning and sharing!
here are some clips in slow and fast speed of KMs approach to the same assault the block is not that different, but it comes similtainously with a strike to the throat or face.. from there.. ideally, presing the arm backwhile controlling the head with the striking limb... well, you'll see... KM teaches this defense vs. the icepick. and another this one is the "live side" defense... where you are unable to get or direct to the outside (ie.. it is sudden) I'll see if I can find the "dead side" or outside defense for you when I did serrada escrima we had a couple other defenses.. i'll try to find clips of those too good thread edit - oh yeah the link... *shakes head* http://www.kravmagaco.com/videos.php you'll find some gun defense demos too that are pretty interesting.. i think
Funny: http://www.raynerslanetkd.com/video/funnies/bobwolf.wmv Against a gun (warning: dont look if you dont like nasty scenes): http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-1459052511793821456 Freeform posted a good Dog brothers video here. Stuart
Hi Thomas, I know we discussed knife defense a bit a while ago. This gets to one of the differentiators between a system like Combat Hapkido and other arts like TKD - growth. I shudder whenever I see defenses like the ones you linked to. The history of those responses can be traced back to concepts derived from a Japanese Battlefield for use against a sword. They've been retrofitted to knife defense without much thought for the changes in environment and weapon. In doing so, they loose the solid foundation that they were built on and become "ritualized movements" with little grounding in reality. What's unfortunate is that while everyone seems to notice this, no one is working to change TKD (or other martial arts with similiar problems) approaches to knife defense. And these techniques just keep getting propigated. Kudos to Combat Hapkido and similiar arts that choose to evolve and update approaches based on today's conditions. - Matt ps. For those who are interested, there are five components to a good weapons defense which roughly, though not necessarily, flow in this order: 1. Get off the line of the weapon. 2. Isolate the weapon arm and prevent it from reentering. 3. Punish the core of the body as fast and devistatingly as possible 4. Disarm if necessary 5. Get the heck out of dodge How many of those did you see those responses doing?
Not true - some of us are, though we are in the minority. Knife defence and knife attack sparring is part of our dan grading syllabus as well as regular training and is pretty similar training wise to the dog brothers video posted here. Below are some pictures from a recent grading 9a full write up is on site) An attack like the one first mentioned in the post The gradings incorporate both long and close range defences: Of course, we do actually train these techniques/defenses in class. These responses were few, if any because the post didnt ask about knife defences per se, it asked about a few techniques shown in pictures, sepcifically the over-head ice pick type of attack and the defences shown. Stuart
We tend to see a high block in this situation as fairly dicey so do not train with it for knife defence. Not TKD but TSD We've had an interesting comparison over the last two weeks with the same strike being taught by 2 generations (Father & Son) on respective weekends. We were using sticks rather than knives, so I think of the two we would probably go with this one: Move left and connect with the decending right hand / arm with your right hand and guide it wide of you and then back between your bodies - catching the wrist with your left hand and making sure their arm goes back behind the line of their body (not out to their side). Take the offered ribs for an elbow strike as you pass under their arm bringing them into a 'Sankyo' lock and removing their weapon along the way. (Peel out between the fingers using their thumb as the fulcrum) Keep the lock on as you go down on one knee (you need to reach our locking hand higher as you sink), and strike the shin with their weapon before hooking behind the knee and taking them to ground. Their locked wrist is folded back against their ribs, and your arm hooks under their knee and grabs that same wrist. Their weapon can then be pressed into their wrist/arm bones for pain compliance. [I've left the last sentence in there - beacuse even if it is a knife you don't NEED to use the blade if you don't want blood on your hands]
Not sure if I mentioned this before, so apologies if so: Last Thursday I was contacted about ITN (TV Company)about the recent knife attacks that have taken place in the UK - they asked my opinions on what to do, defenses and stuff like that - then asked if Id do a slot showing some defences. Some of the advice they had been offered was terrible, one instructor told the reporter to carry her own knife, another to roll up in a ball on the floor!!! Anyway, we filmed it Friday (it was pretty nerve racking in front of a TV camera) and it was meant to be on that night, but with the news of the 'bomb factory shooting' the same day, its been put off, possibly until the next Friday. The news actually came through whilst filming it - so Im not sure when it will be on now, maybe over the weekend. It was filmed for "London Tonight" which Im told is on at 6pm Fridays and at the weekend! They said they`d call me when its going so Ill post here when I know if anyones interested. Im concerned about the editing, its real difficult doing talking to the camera (at first they just said they wanted me to demonstrate things). Worst thing was I kept wanting to explain little things but there isnt time on the program so its gonna be a basics for non-martial arts people. Plus, they wanted in the main for me to stick to Government Issued guidelines - some of which i didnt agree with or felt were pretty irrelevant given the target audience and time frame of the piece (a few minutes at most Id think) The funniest thing was, when they first started filming they asked me to show them what Id do if a knife was pulled on me.. so I did. And they said it was probibly too vicious for evening tele!!! Oh well! LOL Stuart
