This discussion took place on the Yahoo! Ninjutsu group. Entries appear in the order in which they were time-stamped in the group messages. From: tom peterson Date: Mon Apr 24, 2006 7:37 am Subject: Re: Ninjutsu video clips: Korean Sword styles did'nt say that hwarangdo sword style is similar i meant that hwarangdo is the korean form of ninjutsu From: "Cayce" Date: Thu Apr 27, 2006 7:42 pm Subject: Re: Ninjutsu video clips: Korean Sword styles Hardly. Ninjutsu is ninjutsu. HRD is HRD. Ninjutsu is Japanese. HRD is Korean. Ninjutsu is nothing like HRD, save that they are both martial arts. HRD is nothing like ninjutsu, save that they are both martial arts. Neither the ancient hwarang warriors, nor the sulsa, nor modern HRD practitioners study a Korean "form of" ninjutsu, because there is no Korean (nor Spanish, nor Ecuadorian, nor Icelandic, nor American, nor Chinese, etc.) "form of" ninjutsu. That would be about as accurate as "Wild West Samurai". Other martial arts have their own merits, but they are most assuredly not ninjutsu. Some may be complimented by the comparison, while others . . . From: tom peterson Date: Sat Apr 29, 2006 7:36 pm Subject: Re: Ninjutsu video clips: Korean Sword styles whether you know it or not hwarangdo is the korean form of ninjutsu. all people at war had their own forms of spy's & spec ops . thats all ninjutsu etc. really is From: Jye nigma Date: Sat Apr 29, 2006 11:27 pm Subject: Re: Ninjutsu video clips: Korean Sword styles There's only one problem with that...hwarangdo as the martial art wasn't korean ninjutsu, nor was it even the actual art the Hwarang used. Hwarangdo is a martial art created in modern times. The hwarang were similar to samaurai, not ninja. From: "Cayce" Date: Sun Apr 30, 2006 7:59 am Subject: Re: Ninjutsu video clips: Korean Sword styles That is as ridiculous as saying that native American tribes were all the same, or that all forms of music are the same, or all religions are the same. It amazes me that, with so much information available via books, dvds and videos, seminars, the internet and formal dojo, a great many people still have such ill-informed and ridiculous views about ninjutsu (or anything else for that matter). No, HRD is not the Korean form of ninjutsu. As Jye pointed out, HRD is a modern development by the Lee brothers. The ancient Hwarang warriors were more like samurai or the medieval English knight than the ninja. Do your research before making a statement like that, especially on a forum dedicated to ninjutsu. That kind of statement will only make you look foolish to those who are better informed. From: tom peterson Date: Sun Apr 30, 2006 10:41 am Subject: Re: Ninjutsu video clips: Korean Sword styles guess you never read the writings of micheal d echanis , or heard of chuck sanders , joo bang lee , joo sang lee or plenty of others that know i suggest you look up counterparts to ninjutsu. you might find out something if your willing to learn & clean out your ears. i don't do sports art's i do combatives only. take care , tom [edit: He claims to study only combatives, yet he is defending hrd, which is a modern martial sport. Why do I call it a martial sport? Because it has kata and sparring in its curriculum, both of which have sporting applications.] From: Joe Cool Date: Sun Apr 30, 2006 11:54 am Subject: Re: Ninjutsu video clips: Korean Sword styles Ninjutsu is NOT all about spies and special ops and like posted previously if you bothered to take a look in to the history of hwarangdo, which I did via google, it seemed that the martial art was more in tune with the Samurai class of feudal Japan than Ninjutsu. But you have your mind clearly made up so enjoy you day! From: tom peterson Date: Mon May 1, 2006 9:51 pm Subject: Re: Ninjutsu video clips: Korean Sword styles well number one if you never been there you have no room to talk . what can i say except btdt . later [edit: This is one of the stupidest arguments anyone can make when discussing martial arts - “you haven’t been there, so you don’t know”. Even if someone has traveled to a foreign country, a stamped passport is not proof of authoritative knowledge on a subject. If travel to an art’s country of origin is a requirement for proficiency, there are a lot of martial arts practitioners who will never be “authentic”.] From: tom peterson Date: Mon May 1, 2006 9:52 pm Subject: Re: Ninjutsu video clips: Korean Sword styles there again you have'nt been in depth . Later [edit: There is no indication to whom, or to what, he is referring to here.] From: Jye nigma Date: Mon May 1, 2006 11:53 pm Subject: Re: Ninjutsu video clips: Korean Sword styles What in the world are you talking about. You obviously don't know what you're talking about. Do you even study hwarangdo, or have you? if so who is your instructor? [edit: Peterson never replied to this.] From: Jye nigma Date: Tue May 2, 2006 12:05 am Subject: Re: Ninjutsu video clips: Korean Sword styles That's what I was trying to tell that guy. He's obviously relying on too much internet data than any real life knowledge. I'm a Korean arts practitioner and that's how I know the difference. One reason is because I know of a korean sword style I learned. hwarangdo sword style is more similar to chinese sword styles. From: Jye nigma Date: Tue May 2, 2006 12:10 am Subject: Re: Ninjutsu video clips: Korean Sword styles I would suggest you look into the very FIRST introduction of ninjutsu to AMERICA and THEN look at the FIRST book on hwarangdo written in korean by Joo Bang Lee...lol. Then while you're in research mode, look at kuk sool won and hwarangdo....and compare the similarities. Now I'm not saying hwarngdo isn't a good martial art, but it's not what you seem to think it is. First of all sulsa are the skills of hwarangdo which are not just taught as the regular hwarangdo curriculum...so there goes that theory. From: Jye nigma Date: Tue May 2, 2006 1:43 am Subject: Re: Ninjutsu video clips: Korean Sword styles lol...wild west samurai...lol. Hey did you see how this tom person back peddled? he started out saying hwarangdo sword style is similar to ninjutsu, now he's saying he didn't say that. The moderator of the forum chose not to approve any of my other replies to peterson’s ridiculous statements.
I thought Hwarang was a character on Tekken. But seriously, what is the point of this thread. Hwa Rang Do and Ninjutsu are not the same. There may be similarities in both, but everything has similarities. If a Russian martial art had several similar techniques, would that make it Russian Ninjutsu?
Whoops, after re-reading I do see this thread's point. Sorry. It just appears that Peterson is just uneducated on the subject but refuses to admit it :love:
This Hwarangdo system eventually spread to Japan and was very influential in the development of the Japanese Samurai system and Bushido (Korean-Musado, this is the moral mentality of the Hwarang and samurai). During this time much of the Japanese culture originated from the Korean kingdoms of Silla, Koguryo and Packche. Along with social customs, martial aspects were passed across the sea to Japan. So the counterpart of the Silla Hwarang was the Japanese Shogun, and the counterpart of the Silla Rangdo was the Japanese shogun's soldiers (their samurai). It is also thought that the family of the founder of Jujitsu was also connected to the Hwarang warriors. The name of this "Jujitsu " founder is "Shinna Sabro ", and the Korean pronunciation of his name is "Silla Samrang." There were many Koreans who moved to other countries, and because they still felt strong ties to their homeland they used this kingdom's name as their maiden name. The meaning of this founder's name is "Silla third man," so it is thought that this founder's ancestors came from the kingdom of "Silla ". Japanese soft styles such as Judo (mostly a sport version of throwing and chocking), Daitoryu Yawara (same as Aiki Jujitsu - mostly throwing, joint manipulation, and grappling), and Aikido (mostly the use of an opponent's strength, and joint manipulation) were the same skills that evolved from Jujitsu. But, in Japan the Daitoryu yawara (Aiki Jujitsu) and Jujitsu name has been disbanded, and presently these branch schools are called Judo and Aikido schools. However, the Jujitsu that has become poular in present times is called Brazilian Jujitsu and is mostly focused on grappling and ground locks. All of these Japanese soft style skills share many similarities with the soft style "Yusool" skills of the ancient secret combat skills of the Hwarang which are called "Um Yang Kwon " (Yusool -soft skills and Kangsool -hard skills). Because of these many similarities and the meaning of the founder's name, it is thought that Jujitsu's roots lie in the Hwarang tradition of Korea. Much of the influence of this Hwarang tradition is due to the arrival of King Chinhung (540 AD), who was also a Hwarang. The Hwarang system existed before King Chinhung, but he was the individual who greatly developed the power and strength of this system within his administration and military. After his arrival followed a long period of wars of expansion with the larger kingdom to the north, Koguryo. However, before the northern kingdoms were engaged, King Chinhung took on the task of driving out the Japanese colonies to the east, which were in alliance with the Yamato clan of Japan. Ten years later, King Chinhung turned his armies onto the fertile valleys of west and central Korea, between the Han and Imjin Rivers. This was the Pakche kingdom, and the conquest of the Han-Imjin river area brought great wealth to Silla through the acquisition of the richest agricultural lands in the peninsula, additional military service, and the labor of the peasantry. This conquest also opened an easier route to China through the capture of the ports on the Yellow Sea. Because of the Hwarang warriors of Silla, these three countries were unified for the first time. Who were the Hwarang? One of the most significant acts by King Chinhung was the development of the Hwarang system within his military service. This Hwarang system was organized by groups of youths who went to mountains, rivers and other places of natural beauty to learn to develop human morality, loyalty, and mental and emotional control along with their combat skills. Through this development of strong mental, physical and spiritual training they were taught to act as models of their culture and chivalrous warriors. They were Silla's elite warriors. They were called Hwarang (Flower Knights) and Rangdo (a Hwarang's disciple or soldier). These were young men who exemplified the warrior-intellectual that influenced the Silla kingdom's history for many centuries. A 13th century monk recorded that the Silla kingdom had "issued a decree and chose boys from good royal families who were of good morals and renamed them Hwarang (title of leader or General). Hwarang Sor Won was to be admitted as a Kuksun (Dae Jang Gun or head General). This was the beginning of the Hwarang (JanGun-General) and Rangdo (SaByoung -soldiers) special integration within the military system. During this time these warriors were called Hwarangdo (Hwarang and Rangdo group of people) which means the flowering knights and their warriors. Besides religious instruction, the Hwarang were taught traditional dance and songs for their emotional development. Literature, the arts, and sciences were taught for their academic development. They were also taught the art of warfare, archery, combative skills etc. Their combat skills are based upon the concept of the unity of opposites embodied in the um-yang . Their empty-handed fighting techniques were known for their blending of the hard and soft, linear and circular attacks. A linear thrust punch could break through the wooden armor of an opponent and kill him instantly. They could also spin kick at such speeds that their enemies frequently thought that the feet of the Hwarang warriors were swords. Also they learned 108 different weapons within their curriculum. The eighth century Silla historian, Kim Taemun, noted in his Hwarang chronicle. "Sagacious counselors and loyal ministers follow the Hwarang and Rangdo; they produce great generals and brave soldiers." The rank of Hwarang signified the position of a teacher of the their combat skills and he commanded 500 to 5,000 students, who were called Rangdo. A Kuksun possessed the rank of head general (Dae Jang Gun) in the army. The ferocious fighting spirit of the Hwarang warriors became legendary, and their exploits were recorded for posterity in Hwa Rang poetry and literature. The Hwarang narratives of the Silla dynasty became the basis of the classical novel that formed the backbone of Korean literature for a thousand years. Damn straight he is ! You gotta love those Axe kicks !
Hwarang-do is complete trash on a par with Ashida Kim. It was made up by some guy now working out of a mini-mall in southern California. There was no Hwarang warriors as they try to portray. They were cute little boys that hung out with an old pervert king. We did this on another thread here. http://www.martialartsplanet.com/forums/showthread.php?t=16482
I'm inclined to agree with Grimjack on this one. Like the Chinese "lin kuei", the Korean "sulsa" never existed prior to thirty years ago. People came up with these "ninja parallels" within the cultural environment of the West's "ninjamania". Sorry, but this is all a load of bunk. Laterz.
The fact that people still believe things like this is why I was brought into the world. There is speculation that the Sesok Ogye, the Five Principles of Hwarang morality may have spread to Japan, though not with the importation of martial techniques. It is important to clarify a few things here. 1) The Hwarang were not a band of warriors. They were a youth corp for the proper education of young male nobles. They were taught Confucian rites and ettiquette, Buddhist philosophy and esoterica, as well as martial techniques (kwonbup...aka Korean kung fu). 2) Some Hwarang did go on to distinguish themselves as generals and warriors, though just as many, if not more, went on to become civil servants. 3) As a youth formation group, the Sesok Ogye was meant to be a set of principles to raise young men of righteous morality, rather than a warrior code. As these young nobles may go to war, or become involved in the political processes involved in war, it was important for them to understand courage in the face of the enemy (Principle 4: In combat, never retreat) and the sanctity of human life (Principle 5:Take life with discrimination). However, as the Hwarang were not warriors, the Ogye was not strictly a warrior code. There are many aspects of Japanese culture that are Korean importations, or Chinese importations by way of Korea. Buddhism is a perfect example as something that was brought to Japan by Koreans. However, there is little evidence of any martial techniques being transmitted to Japan at any point in time by Koreans. Please provide documented proof for this claim. This is incorrect. Shinra Saburo was a Japanese man. He received training in Buddhism at a temple called Shinra and this is how he gets this name. It is coincidence that this name is pronounced Shilla in Korean. I think I figured out where you've gotten all your information from. This is World Hwa Rang Do Association (WHRDA) propoganda. This preceding statement shows how ignorant of reality the WHRDA is. DRAJJ Daito-ryu Aikijujutsu is alive and well, and practiced in Japan and around the world. There are many schools of Koryu jujutsu, gendai jujutsu, as well and modern decendents such as Gracie Jujutsu that continue to be practiced to this day. I'm testing for my fourth dan in Yoosool at the end of this month. Trust me. This is bullshido. There is no record of a Hwarang system called Umyangkwon, meaning Yin Yang Fist, being practiced by the Hwarang. Jujutsu's roots do not lie in the Hwarang tradition. The irony here is that the curriculum of the WHDRA is largely Daito-Ryu Aikijujutsu with a Shippal Gi base, and very closely mirrors the Kuksool curriculum.
You mean the Lin Keui wasn't really Chinese Ninja? Does that mean Sub-Zero (Mortal Kombat) was a fraud?
While I know this statement was made tongue-in-cheek, I thought I'd elaborate on this. . . During the infamous "ninjamania" here in the West, a number of martial arts enthusiasts and promoters with little or no training in the methods of historical research began presenting their particular "parallel" to the Japanese shinobi-no-mono. This most famously included groups like the Korean "sulsa" and the Chinese "lin kuei", among others. Occassionally, these writers would make grandiose claims about these groups such as the Japanese "ninja" learning their methods from them. This, of course, is a completely load of bovine feces. None of these groups have a basis in actual history. Whether due to Oriental nationalism (as with the Hwarang-Do) or to deliberate fraud (as with Ashida Kim), much of this information was simply "made up" to sell books and promote martial arts. It should be pointed out that Hayes occassionally mentioned a Tibetan "trulkor" group that may fall into the aforementioned categories, as well. I certainly have never read about them in any other source. Coincidentally, they fit nicely into the vision of "ninja" outlined in his books --- enlightened paramilitary warrior-mystics that used covert tactics to defend a religious way of life --- which lends me to such skepticism. Of course, at the time, a lot of bad information about the "ninja" was being bandied about as historical fact. The two most quoted sources for "ninja history" in the West are without doubt Donn Draegger and Stephen Hayes. Yet, when you actually examine the "history" they wrote about concerning the shinobi-no-mono, you realize it would never stand up to critical scrutiny. Even reputable (and somewhat reliable) historians like Stephen Turnbull tended to lean toward the "theatrical" in his history of the ninja. So, this was a time when not much critical examination was done of the whole "ninja" phenomenon. Lots of stupid stuff was getting passed off as "historical fact" and this includes the Korean "sulsa". Laterz.
Anytime, Matt. Thanks for giving me the opportunity to do so. Your T-shirt is on the way. This is for you as well:
So...the original poster of this also posted on Bullshido. It would seem Bullshido poster "Imarubber" and MAP poster "White Belt" are the same person. Here's a cross-post of my response there...edited for television of course. Hwa Rang Do is Korean Kung Fu mixed with Daito-ryu Aikijujutsu, marginal Buddhist practice, and a bunch of shapoopy pulled out of Lee Jobang's donkey. Its continued existence is a bane upon the Korean martial arts, as well as legitimate research into KMA history. They weren't warriors. They were youth training corps. Think the Boy Scouts, only for the nobility, and along with camping and knot tying, they learned esoteric Buddhism, kwonbup (Korean kempo, anyone?), archery, swordwork, poetry, Confucian rights and... Oh yeah! There is research indicating that homosexuality and pedophilia were prevalent among the Hwarang. I'm not kidding. Why do you think only the most "beautiful" of the noble youth made the cut to join the "Flower Boys". Oh yeah, they trained in the mountains too. Anyone who makes the best Brokeback KMA joke in this thread will win a prize from me. The Sulsa never existed. See my previous comment about Lee Jobang pulling ddong out of his donkey. Michael Echanis wrote three how-to manuals on Korean knife and stick work, supposedly based on ancient Hwarang principles. Funny...it looks like really acrobatic DRAJJ to me. He didn't write anything legitimate about KMA history. So there were SpecOps guys who did Hwa Rang Do. Wupdedo...I know a SpecOps guy who does Taiji. This doesn't legitimize the Bullshido history of Hwa Rang Do. Right. Hapkido instructor who suddenly became the last holder of an unverifiable lineage of ancient KMA that suspiciously resembles DRAJJ and Korean Kung Fu thrown together with kimchi on the side...and who's curriculum is almost identical to Kuksool, who then goes on to create possibly the most cult-like KMA in existence. Ninja please... The brother of the above. Used to teach Hapkido. He doesn't teach anything any more. Last I heard there was bad blood between him and his brother, he quit teaching martial arts, and the last thing I heard about him he was selling carpet.
I'm sorry to hear that. I've met her before in NYC. She is short. Really short. And I'm not exactly what you would call tall.
Its never happened to me before i swear My GF will verify, i have been known to go for a whole TEN MINUTES! ...daddy cool
