Do you counter simultaneously ?

Hi,

The majority of fighting styles I have trained in (Wing Chun, JKD, Boxing, Lau Gar) use effective counter strikes whilst you are being attacked i.e. simultaneously block & hit

Because of my naivity with especially Japanese arts I was wondering whether this is the case with the martial art that you study or do you block and then hit in two seperate motions?

Look forward to your comments.

 

it would be kind of impractical to do it in 2 motions. by the time you've blocked, their fist is headed back to their guard, and your opening is gone. doesn't make much sense .

 

Do you mean block with one hand and strike with the other?

 

Skrom: I tend to agree but I have seen many fighters employ exactly that, I would especially like to here from the karate guys because i have seen plenty of it in karate.......although I may be wrong on the style, i get confused easily, i do know they have nice white gi's on though.

NewLearner: yes, thats what I mean so for example someone steps in with a right and you parry with your left hand whilst firing a right to the body.

 

What is your definition of effective? I don't think that literally a block and strike can be simultaneous and be practical. I believe there is no simultaneous block and hit IMHO. It just sounds like a description used in basics to say it is a block/strike combination so that beginners don't have to think too much about what they are doing, but in reality you aren't waiting for an attack, it is two strikes with one of the strikes being used as a block.

I even suppose it could be a shield where as you are shielding your body with a block while striking with the other hand. Kempo shield techniques are like this.

In karate, the block can be a strike. So it is all effectively one motion, blocking and striking. In reality it is getting off the line of attack and/or parrying and using the block as a strike. (e.g. think of someone punching at you and you parry with one hand while getting out of the way, with this movement your other arm does the blocking motion, but you treat it as a strike... a limb destruction.)

If a block is just a block, IMHO, the only time you will really be able to follow with a strike is if you catch your opponent by surprise (e.g. they are confused that they were blocked) and/or you catch them while they are trying to back away (e.g. they are afraid of what you can do to them so after they attack they try to disengage).

 

In Mantis we have several block/parries in conjunction with a strike. Gwa Tong Choy parries the hook up and out while firing a straight punch to the face. Our lower block for uppercuts is a step back, moving the strike out to the side where damage is negated, and a palm heel strike to the face is fired at the same time.

Several of our straight lead defense involves moving around, blocking/parrying, and striking at the same time. It's more efficient in this theory of combat to do as such.

 

Parries are not the same as blocks. Blocks are interceptions of an attack, much like a strike that stops an attack. Parries are redirections. So where I'm coming from, a block + strike is really two strikes with one of the strikes used as a block. A parry + strike is a redirection and a strike. Different techniques.

IMHO, most karate blocks are really parry + strike (limb destruction). However, they could be blocks too, depending on how they are used. They could also be counters to grabs. The movements are fairly generic and need to be fine tuned or adapted to the situation in training.

In Kajukenbo, what I teach, we have many block and strike combinations, and we have many parry and strike combinations perhaps because of the influences of Kenpo and Ch'uan Fa. In many cases the block and strike combinations are with the block being an attack to a limb and the strike attacking some other target. The parry and strikes are often limb destructions. Of course this is only the tip of the iceberg.

I like how you used the word conjunction because things aren't simultaneous most of the time but just together. Techniques flowing together as if they work as one.

 

I am learning Hankyo Kempo Ju-jitsu and we almost always yews block strike combos. But it is mostly a block and grab then pool of baluns as you strike and then throw. So its not quite block and strike at the same time, but if you do it fast inuf it looks simultaneous. for example an S block with a uppercut bunch to bring them forward so they throw easily.

At least thats how i learnt it .

 

In TSD (Korean Karate) we are taught to counter in one motion, however when learning them in 1-step it is practiced as two motions, a block, then the attack, then when you understand it and become proficient at it then it will be done simultaniously. I find it hard sometimes as its pretty scary in sparring to move and attack someone who's launching a combination at you, but its just a matter of using it at the right time

 

We don't generally use blocks as such - mostly parries. And we use a number of moves where we parry and punch simultaneously. For example: parry a straight right with the left hand while simultaneously stepping 'off the line' and delivering a punch with the right hand to the attacker's 'floating' rib.

Blocks I think of as more of a 'last resort', because you are having to meet force with force, which would put you at a disadvantage if your opponent is bigger than you! Blocking and striking tend to be two seperate movements in my experience. More of a reactive sort of thing, if that makes sense.

 

i thought you meant it was done in 2 separate motions, as in *block, pause, hit*. it makes a little more sense to block and strike at the same time, but i don't see why you wouldn't just move your head instead. i imagine it would be easier to focus on the strike itself that way.

 

One of the FMA principles (as I was taught it at least) is that there should be backups for everything, so that even if you're moving your head to evade a strike you'd also be stepping out to avoid the strike and also parrying in some way, so if you mess up any of those techniques individually you're still reducing the danger of getting hit fatally.

And also, while the parry and strike aren't necessarily simultaneous in FMA they are often done "on the same beat" as the term goes.

So your strike is, at the latest, going out while the parry/evasion is being done.

 

I've trained in wing chun which has a fair bit of simultaneous block and strike, although to be honest its rarely truly simultaneous. More often than not the parry is a fraction before the strike. Also helps make the punch stronger as you have a fraction more time to put some weight behind it.

 

I think the timing of the block/strike is somewhat immaterial. I think one should train so that the block and the strike are one complete motion. If you strike and block with different hands, you should train the block/strike as one motion. If you strike and block with the same hand, you should train it as one motion. In one case, they will happen at the same time. In the other case, it will be like block, then strike.

Just to clear up the semantics, when I say block, I mean parry/block.

Nice post rebel Wado.

 

I'm going to ignore any distinction between block and parry for a moment and define a block as any movement of a limb that intercepts an incoming blow and thereby stops it from hitting me. In which case, yes I do a lot of simultaneous blocks and strikes, whenever it seems appropriate. Sometimes the timing may be broken slightly, sometimes not - but importantly its often the same body movement that provides both the block and the strike with power and stability.

Mike

 

I second what Mike said. The other thing to note is the concept of "cut" hitting where a single hand is used to simultaniously block/parry and strike. I think at advanced stages all good arts get to the intercepting/attacking the attack intention mindset which is predicated on more-or-less simultaneous blocking and striking.

I also think that at those advanced stages, arts move away from blocking and concetrate on parry/check/trap.

- Matt

 

Also to clarify, we often refer to parries as "deflection blocks" I'm thinking that is what is meant by most when they say parry/block.

I also agree that the key is that the techniques flow together as to feel as one movement. This is true with any type of combination move, whether they involve a block or not.

I had forgotten also about the heavy use of forearm block turning into arm grab, followed by counterstrike in many karate systems. Good stuff.

Now to repeat myself somewhat, if it is a "block" and strike combination it can be done as a parry (deflection block) coordinated with a strike OR it can be done as two strikes coordinated together with one of the strikes targetting through a limb. I use the word coordinated to mean that they flow together as if one movement even though they are separate and independent.

 

Not only do we counter and strike in one motion, but we try to do so using one arm. What that means is, we block the attack with our counterstrike.

An example would be a right hand punch to the left hand side of my face, as i step in to counter with a left hand strike i'm simultaniously blocking their technique with my oncoming strike. In most cases it would be countered with a right handed technique to make it harder for them to counter.

If it's done on the right side of a fight handed attack, when i step and counter to their right side, they would have to come back across they're body to attack. To which i still have a free hand to counter an attack that won't have much power because it's across their body.

Kinda hard to explain, but i think most will get it.

jeff

 

Jeff,

I think what you're refering to is "cut hitting" (using WC/JKD terminology) but I'm not sure. Can you come up with a different example?

- Matt

 

absolutely, I can't say i ever really to a standard attack, I virtually always counter.