I'm posting this on here purely for answers. Although I have a degree in arcaheology, I know very little about the history of Japanese writing systems, so any help would be appreciated, but let me start the question with this quote from a Bujinkan site. OK, so Amatsu Tatara was a secret. that was kept for 3,000 years, then this from a Genbukan site So this says 7 BC, which is 2,000 years. Now i'm not trying to use one x kan against another here, as they are both saying different thgings. The first knowledge of Amatsu Tatara, the second having it written down. Please bear with me. Because research on Japanese writing I have carried out says things similar to this. So this was a mear 1400 years ago, not 2,000 and certainly not 3,000. So my questions are this. Was there a writing system in Japan prior to the 6th and 7th centuries AD. If not then what is written on the Genbukan site must be incorrect. Also prior to the 1st millenia, Japan was in the Mesolithic period, i.e hunter gatherer stage and thus would move around. Mesolithic societies tend not to have writing. However lets take it that maybe 2,000 years ago, Amatsu Tatara scrolls were written, how would those writers know, based on the fact that Mesolithic people do not tend to record thing, that the Amatsu Tatara was already a thousand years old. As I say, i'm no expert here and would love to know the answer, which is probably very simple, so any help would be appreciated. Gary Arthur
did you try emailing the owners of website with questions? From a Bujinkan point of view have you tried Peter King as he is teach a two year course on that subject? or is there something i'm missing? something elsewhere elusive......
Your first quote refers to Amatsu Tatara going back 3000 years. Your second quote refers to the oldest scroll which goes back to 7bc. So maybe they are trying to claim that the skills of Amatsu Tatara are old, and they were written down later on but still the oldest in Japan. But maybe you should remember that some schools claim to be taught to the founders by tengu. There does seem to be some problems with taking all the stories of Japanese martial arts at face value.
"According to the tradition, the Amatsu Tatara Hibumi were written around 700 BC by the King of Mima as a record of the history of Japan. Tatara Isuzu Hime no Mikoto was given these Scrolls as its 9th grandmaster. She then married the first emperor Jinmu and gave these scrolls to the Ohtoomo, Nakatomi, and Mononobe families who had close ties to the Emperor. The story of King Mima was explained in the hand-written book of Kuki Bunsho Kaisetsu and also in the Izumo Hisho secret scroll." That is misleading. Takamatsu sensei gave the 106 (? i think) scrolls to all of his top students. (ueno, kimura, kinbei, etc..). --------------------------------------------------------- Strangely enough, people in the Bujinkan make references to Amatsu Tatara and medicine so much, but according to Tanemura sensei in an interview with John Lindsey, the medical knowledge of Amatsu Tatara scrolls arent even a main aspect of the art!
Hi, In regards to the Genbukan as to what the Amatsu Tatara teachings are, from my experience what has been taught by Soke has been primarily emphasizing the spiritual and philosophical aspects and as to the origins being the root of the arts we study, ie Gikan ryu, Gyokko ryu, etc evolving from Amatsu Tatara. Some current publications are the books Chi-E and Chu-Do by Tanemura Sensei which are excellent reads. There is always a sense that the spiritual aspects are only one segment of the art and only the tip of the iceburg. Tanemura Soke has also created the ATWF or Amatsu Tatara World Federation and is creating a system of teaching the arts. Future intensive instructors seminars in the Genbukan will cover other parts of Amatsu Tatara, I feel that Soke will be teaching more and more of this system and that to this point very little of it is truly known by anyone. sincerely, Brian Hodges Renshi GWNBF/KJJR Fudoshin Dojo-Cho
Grimjack posted This is a very good point, and something I agree on, but saying that the teachings are much older than the point in which they were written down still does not give us 3000 years ago. If these teachings were passed orally for over a thousand years, who was keeping track. In other words who had the knowledge to know that these teaching were passed from what person to what person and how long they lived. Remember as far as we know there were no calendars and even if their was it was not calculated in the same manner ours is today. Banpen Fugyo posted But surely if this was true it would overturn Japanese history. It would be like finding a book written by the builders of Stone Henge. Yet the sources still say that there was no writing before 6th, 7th centuries AD. And what language was this written in. I guess Babylonian, as that is where king Mima O is from right. So OK who in Japan had the ability to read this Babylonian text? In other words how could future generation understand what he had written, and where is this text now. Again the implications of a text being written in Babylonian in Japan would hit virtually every scientifics journal world wide as one of the greatest discoveries of our time. Gary Arthur
I was told the scrolls were written in Sanskrit, by My teacher who is an Amatsu Practitioner. And I think Babylonians used ox plough writing with a stylus on wax or clay tablets, maybe they used scrols as well by 7bc. I think he mentioned the scrolls being brought my monks to Japan but can not swear on that to be honest it was a fair while ago.
Posted by Adouglasmhor True Babylonians used Cuneiform or wedge shaped writing, none of which appears anywhere in Japan. Although I am surprised that your teacher does not know of the origins of the art he practices. However the writing I think you are talking about is called "kamiyo moji" and not Sanscrit. However searches of various historical sites state Also So apparantly there is no real evidence for writing before the 4th century AD, and any that does exist i.e kamiyo moji is considered a hoax. Now I know absence of evidence is not evidence of absence, but can you see how tenuous this idea of the Amatsu Tatara being 2,000 years old is, let alonw 3,000 years old as the Bujinkan website pointed out. Also of course this story about King Mima O from Babylon visiting Japan with these teachings is again very tenuous. We are asked to believe that this King, for whatever reason travelled thousands of miles to Japan. Now one source spoke about hoaxes and Japanese nationalism, so is this not similar to the Nazis also in the 1930s trying to suggest that the people of the fatherland came from Troy? Please note I have not put the sources but i am happy to put them up for anyone that wants to check them out. Gary Arthur
Garth, the best piece of advice you have received on this thread has been ignored - contact Peter King. If you are sincere in wanting to know more about how Hatsumi Sensei's teaches this aspect of the legacy he received from Takamatsu Sensei, that's the best place for you to start. No one reading this thread will be able to give you the answers you seem to be looking for regarding the Amatsu Tatara, as it's simply not widely practiced or understood. There are people professionally practicing the medicial component of this knowledge, the Hichi Boku Goshin Jutsu, but they are unlikely to know a lot of the background. (This is much the same as the fact that most martial arts teachers' can't tell you that much about the history of the art they practice unless they have made a study of it.)
Posted by Cuchulain Now why should I want to contact Peter King. My question does not concern the contents of the Amatsu Tatara, or the validity of what is practiced. My question concerns the early language of Japan, and how if, there are no writing systems before the 4th Century how the teachings can be proved to be 3000 years old. Now Peter King is NOT as far as i know trained in archaeological or historical research and anything that he has bneen taught would come from the sources I have quoted. Would I go ask a priest about the origin of the bible, no of course not. I would examine historical sources written at the time, and research carried out by academics who specialise in this field. Granted we do not know much about the Amatsu Tatara, even though there are people out their teaching things from it. But my question was in regard to the statements about the origing of the Amatsu Tatara, i.e How do we know its that old?, Wheres the evidence. Granted there may not be many people out there that know about the Amatsu Tatara but there are people on this forum that have studied Japanese Language, and this is why I posed the question. You see it does not have to be the Amatsu Tatara we are taling about but any Japanese document that people state that its teachings are 3000 years old. Gary Arthur
Then you need to ask the expert in history here, Heretic888. To throw out that type of question to a bunch of people that really don't know (and really may care less) about Japanese history and the language is to ask for a lot of guess work and speculation.
Grimjack I'm throwing out the question because this is a forum, and I think is of interest to many. Sure Heretic 888 may be the expert, but i'm sure there are a few others here that might know the answer too, if indeed there is one. Gary Arthur
I thought that was strange as well. The comment about not contacting Peter is at odds with common sense. why not contact those teaching? this bit hmm a snipe.. 'Granted we do not know much about the Amatsu Tatara, even though there are people out their teaching things from it. ' Got to the people directly, how would any of use be able to answer your questions? I sense an agenda here, prove me wrong and contact both parties for information.
According to Tanemura sensei: "At this time, these scrolls were made from cedar tree bark and were written in Kamiyo Moji, an ancient hand written form of ideograms which literally translates as "Gods characters". wish i could be of more help
Posted by Saru 1968 No its not at odds with common sense. I am not asking questions about Amatsu Tatara specifically, I am asking about how if, and this is pretty accepted knowledge, that if Japanese writing did not originate until 6th century AD, or at the earliest 4th century AD how these teachings can be proven to be that old. So unless Peter King is an expert on the history of linguistics, then it would be pretty pointless, and I believe that Peter could only reiterate what has already been stated on the Genbukan website, i.e that the teachings are 2000 years old and on the Bujinkan one that the states that the teachings are 3000 years old. You see as i have said before if one was studying the origin of the bible, would one ask a priest or the archaeologist and historians that really study this stuff. Does Mr King visit archaeological sites, examine the evidence by translating old manuscripts, and go to lectures given by experts on Japanese Linguistics. I doubt it. Therefore he can only tell us what others already know. The problem is that Peter King is like the Priest. Its in his interest, or anyone practicing Amatsu Tatara to believe that the art is really that old. Just like its in a priests interst to believe that Jesus was the son of god. But would you ask a priest about the origins of the bible. Well you might if you were a devout follower of the bible, but if you wanted a non biased answer, based on evidence you would find an expert who spent their life researching this stuff, and not necesarily a practitioner of that art or religion. You see the question is simple. If academics state that the earliest writing in Japan is AD, then how can the Amatsu Tatara teachings be proven to be 3000 years old. Or does Mr King know something that all the other academics don't know, in that there was writing that goes back in Japanese history three thousand years, because if he does, and he can prove it, maybe in the interest of science he should share it with us. Now I don't mean this to be flippant, but seriously can you see how such knowledge would overturn established fact However there are a few people here on the forums that have knowledge of Amatsu Tatara, and one has already replied. However that was to inform me that their teacher had told them that it was written in Sanscrit, which is as far as academic circles go, is not accurate. So i'm really throwing this open to all. How can this stuff be proven to be 3000 years old. there must be some experts out there on Amatsu Tatara that can answer. Gary Arthur
So its a history of writing rather than the subject matter.. Terefore try a history of writing forum as oppossed to a Martial arts forum. Then after research you can discuss your findings with appropreiate sources of course.
No, No, No The amatsu Tatara according to Dr Hatsumi and Tanemura is something that makes up the history of the nine schools. In fact according to them is the origin of these schools, and something that Takamatsu got involved in. I have stated what the scholar, academics and experts say, i.e that there was no writing prior to the 4th century in Japan so I am asking you people in the Bujinkan and Genbukan who make the statement about the history being 2-3 thousand years old, how you can prove this. It seem some simple questions are being avoided here. You know if the Konnigun post saying they are a ninjutsu Ryu going back hundreds of years, you ask them to prove their authenticity based on their claims by written sources. I am asking you to do the same, because what is placed on some of the sites that mention Amatsu Tatara runs contrary to current scientific fact. Gary Arthur
First of all sources please to the research you point to. Second i think i see the game plan here and be assured if it turns out that way I know what responses you will get. Can we please not have another stupid thread, if you have a problem with information placed on websites take it up with the site or contact the head of the organisation. :bang:
Posted by Saru Ok Heres a few. http://www.answers.com/topic/japanese-writing-system http://www.allempires.com/article/index.php?q=chinese_letters http://ling.cornell.edu/japanese_historical_linguistics/1 Writing and Sources.pdf http://www.britannica.com/eb/article-61860 And of course there are many more that state quite catergorivally that Japanese writing does not exist prior to the 4th century. No game plan here. I'm as interested in this as anyone. But i just want to know. If the Amatsu Tatara is a bit like the legend of King Arthur where the sources for his origin are much later, and therefore whether you believe King Arthur or not is based on faith and personal opinion then thats fine. But surely the forums are for discussing things like this and enlarging our knowledge. This is not stupid, its a fair question. It just seems that you are trying to avoid the question. I wish that quote was what people did here. If it was we would not have all that stuff about Konigun, Brian Mcarthy, Stephen K Hayes and others placed on here. Because people would just contact the organisation instead. Gary Arthur
