When you are playing the part of uke you should be training too, not just being there to have a technique/kata performed on you. As this is training and not a fight, punches, kicks etc are performed at less than full power. However it is the job of the uke to act as if they have been struck with full power and react accordingly. This is what I understand as being a "compliant" uke. So if you are training as uke, and you "train" to go down like a sack of spuds when you are only Lightly struck are you in fact training to lose a fight?
Ok, before anyone jumps in and goes off like this is one of those "bujinkan dont spar" threads, no its not, this is one of my guys asking if we are too compliant and are making ourselve open for a beating, would be good to hear from people like Ben and Dale on this. Discuss!!
when i used to do kung fu we would do uke drills (wasnt called uke but same deal) Only time I went along with something is if it was obvious that I was going to be badly hurt otherwise. if someone throws a weakass kick why should i register it? when my sifu demonstrated a technique he didnt floor me but i definitely knew i had just been hit. same with good students. an uke should never react "just because hes supposed to"
IMO, if someone throws themselves to the ground without having whatever technique correctly applied to them, it can give Tori a false sense of achievment. How do you know if you're getting it right if your Uke is bumping for you like it's a pro wrestling match, regardless of wether you've put the strike in decently, effectively broken their balance or whatever? If someone slaps a half-arsed Omote Gyaku or whatever on me I'm not going to start selling it (to continue the pro wrestling analogy), I'll tell them it's not on and maybe try to help them with their form as best as I can, or get someone else to pitch in with assistance, or hope the instructor notices and comes over. I'd also hope that when it's my turn to be Tori that the Uke would do the same for me, if I don't pick up on whatever I'm doing wrong myself.
Personally, I think the Uke should be compliant in the first couple of tries, until the tori (in particular a tori that is new to taijutsu) understands the mechanics of the kata. After that, resistence and speed should be applied by the uke. I also like when my uke shows me potential openings and weknesses as we start to get better. It keep reminding me of where my free hand should be, distance, timing etc... In class, we sometimes even work on the same kata but with the uki striking through different approaches, so that we don't just become "programmed" that punches will only come in the form of deep-stanced, and commited blows.
Thanks for the input. But what if we take, for example, Hicho from the kihon happo. when you are uke you strike to an opening given to you by tori, then you recieve a kick. should you try not to get kicked? or should you allow the tori to carry on with the kata un hindered?
Doesn’t it depend on what you are training? Sanshin and Kihon Happo teach certain aspects/principles with in our art. Now if you are just a beginner and don’t have a solid grasp of those principles when your Uke was trying to counter or avoid what you are doing you wouldn’t learn what you are supposed to. It would be counter productive to your training at that moment. To me being a compliant Uke means helping those you train with. Now this could be standing there and taking a beating or it could mean “over acting” somewhat so that your partner can get to grips with what is being taught. Or resisting when appropriate to show your partner their mistakes. You let them use you so that they can learn, your aim is not to make training difficult for your partner, so being overly compliant or even deliberately awkward at an inappropriate time is not being a compliant Uke. You are complying by letting them use you to train, that’s how I see it. So you responses can and should change in an appropriate manner for your partner. This is something I posted a couple of weeks back, in response to someone’s comments on certain training not looking realistic: So at that time it was necessary for my Uke to react in such a way that I could train the area/concept/drill being covered. Just my opinion.
^^ in the example above, if you are practicing it as a 'pure' kata, then you should allow tori to work through the movements unhindered, however, it could be that you are using kihon as a 'platform' to work with different idea's; uke 'asking tori questions' by making things more difficult, could be one of many exercises. your instructor would 'set the tone' of the session by explaining/demonstrating how they would like you to approach the kata during the given exercise.
im sorry but why were you hitting someone if you had a sword? i think compliance with throws is one thing- throws and submissions tend to have fairly obvious outcomes. the outcome of hitting someone can vary wildly.
I didn't want to get blood on my Gi. Having to keeping washing it just fades the black and makes it look grey :cry: wanted to create some space to avoid blood splatter We worked on this the other night, Si mentioned Kihon Happo as an example, we worked on going all out doing Kihon Happo (both Uke and Tori) and half the time we didn't complete the sequence (for want of a better term) as our Uke was out of it before we could. Other instances it worked well and flowed with each part doing it's job. The dynamic changed depending on the initial response made by Uke, that reaction/response being generated either by Tori or Uke . Now if we were to do that every time we worked on Kihon we'd missed the various things we can learn from it. Like I said your reaction, both Uke and Tori, should be appropriate to the situation. How do you learn what's appropriate? Training
The question in my opinion is answered by the level your training at. If i take on the role of uke and i'm training with someone learning the basic forms ie a,b,c then i will allow the technique, and in doing so explain(if needed) where the balance should be broken, correct striking points to create the opening needed for the technique. But as you progress through the grades i become less compliant and the Tori has to apply the technique at the level where i have no choice, this training becomes much harder and results in nice pain and bruises. If i am training with an experienced student then they have to take the technique or at least beat me into submission..
Yes you will but is that what we do when training? Do we over act time and time again? If you take the instance of when we were doing the sword work where we had to simulate the response from the strike, so that tori could cut, if we did this type of response all the time then yes it would be worrying as I think your flinch response would be a bit extreme and it could teach you to respond in that way every time you experienced contact, but we don't do that er I think. We, I would hope, are also very aware of what we are doing when training and again I feel it comes down to what you are training and at what level. Right lets see if I can remember this and get it right : Take what Sven was talking about, at one of the seminars, with regards to, what he explained as, the components of Shiki; Structure, relaxation, breathing and movement. That when training we should be very conscious of what we are doing and how we are responding, reacting and feeling ad pay attention to the four above areas. We should concentrate on each thing that we do and that through this we will be able to eventually achieve natural movement. So is throwing yourself down i.e. taking a dive a natural response? Especially when you are conscious of the fact that what you are doing is considerd an “unnatural” response which you are only doing it to help your partner? I think the only risk of reacting badly/incorrectly though our training is when you don’t pay attention or are not conscious of your actions if you do this then bad habits creep in. Just my thoughts and ideas not necessarily an answer. IMHO an excellent question Simon, nice one. Got me thinking anyway although Greg will probably say that’s a bad thing
'So is throwing yourself down i.e. taking a dive a natural response?' If the action is to save on a broken wrist, then yes but throwing yourself first before the application, robs the Tori of the technique. But i think what 'The Door' is referring to is an example of bad training habits, ie having finished splatting Uke on floor then bending over Uke smiling and helping them up, rather than splatting them, then moving to a safe distance. But i'd always err on the side of you fight how you train. I'm sure Dale made a post along these lines, 'I'd rather train for a high level threat which then makes it easier to level down to a lower threat than train at a low level threat and then try to deal with a high level threat'.
Is that taking a dive or Ukemi? I see it as a different thing. Like you say throwing yourself before application is bad. If it robs Tori of the technique then how can you being receiving it? I think Door is more after how the way we train alters our response to contact and the consequences in "real life", whatever that is Not so much bad habitts, though I could be wrong Anyway my head hurts now I'm off !
'Is that taking a dive or Ukemi? I see it as a different thing.' going before application is taking a dive, going with is ukemi. 'So if you are training as uke, and you "train" to go down like a sack of spuds when you are only Lightly struck are you in fact training to lose a fight?' To clarify from my viewpoint, as Tori you need to do enough to make the technique work, ie strike hard enough to create a response/reaction, balance break to complete the movement. Maybe 'The Door' could elaborate further...
I believe that when you hit or put on a lock that it should be done so as to affect the skeleton of the uke. If I hit you and I am using proper Taijutsu, you will naturally "buckle" from the strike. It honestly does not take much at all if you are using your body properly. If you do NOT buckle, I didn't hit you correctly so I learn from the non-reaction. If I didn't hit you properly and you still buckle just to be "nice to me," then you are doing a disservice to me as my training partner. You are making me think that I have something that I do not. That's DANGEROUS to me!!! Don't Ping. THUD!!! Please note that there are times when the tori and uke come to an understanding at precisely the right point to NOT follow through and still have the uke react as if the tori had. Soke does this when he takes Noguchi to a dangerous point then lets him roll out of the situation, for example. Both are acknowledging where it could have gone had each had played their role to the hilt. This is good communication and proper training, imo. When I train, I like to have an ongoing discourse between the uke and the tori. Much like the opponent who gets creamed with an "ace" serve in tennis and applauds the server, I get excited about things that work well, whether I am the tori or the uke. I'll say, "Do that again! That was so cool!" or "I think it's almost there. What about there?" Not everyone shares this view, and especially does not like to have input. I was working with someone once, and he put a gyaku on me and I didn't go anywhere. He grew upset with me, telling me "not to fight him." My reply was that I wasn't fighting him, he was just doing it wrong. Naturally, my point didn't make the tori feel good, but he was the one who "started it" by claiming that I was purposely trying to foil him and make him look bad. Why would I do that as his partner? It simply doesn't make sense. He tried cranking, but it still didn't work. Then I said simply, "If you move your foot THERE, I'll go down." He did, and I did. Had he elected to do so, he could have huffed and puffed and held a grudge. Had he done so, then I would somehow had made it through the rest of the practice and never trained with that guy again.... Luckily for us both, my tori remembered WHY we were training: to IMPROVE. It's amazing how frequently PEOPLE FORGET THIS! They think that they should be able to do every move correctly every time. If you could do that, you wouldn't NEED to train!!! LOL! Luckily for us both, my tori was surprisingly mature about the whole thing. I had helped him, as an uke, to find out what was working and what wasn't. That's my job as uke. If you feel that you cannot speak openly with your tori about his/her technique, you need a new partner. Try being collaborative and excited. Everyone loves someone who is engaged and excited, rather than whiney and disengaged. -ben
If that is the case sir, that is BS. You are both there to learn an art, if the person that you are training with is duh!!! what do I do, then they are wasting your time and theres not to mention the money that both of you are shelling out for lessons. I say make the person feel the tech. then and use it as a wake up call. I am sorry I am on my soap box. I have seen to many people do that and it has made me very mad.
See Rich, its not just us lot who get off on the pain and abuse!! One thing Simon said was about setting you up for a fall outside of the dojo and i think this is where we are missing the point, if we are being too complient in the dojo, does it set us up for a beating outside??
