Bujinkan/Genbukan/Jinenkan Differences

Discussion in 'Ninjutsu' started by Infrazael, Feb 3, 2006.

  1. Infrazael

    Infrazael Banned Banned

    I hear people say "no you can't train in-between the varying branches of Ninjutsu."

    So naturally I wondered why; what are the theoritical, practical, technical differences between the three main branches? How is the training method different? What other differences arise?

    Thanks alot. I'm starting to look into Ninjutsu but know zip about it.
     
  2. fire&steel

    fire&steel Valued Member

    A million points of view but only one truth.

    I doubt you will get your questions answered in any real sense here or anywhere else. You will get a lot of points of views from all sides and a lot of myths and tales of politics, training methods etc etc etc being put forth as fact.
    The only known Fact is Hatsumi Sensei is the only Authority on the subject of Ninjutsu, and all of your above questions, and is the only Chosen successor Of Takamatsu Sensei . The other 2 Exkans are Ex students of Hatsumi sensei that decided that they wanted their own path as teachers, and set up their own Org's.
     
    Last edited: Feb 3, 2006
  3. Keikai

    Keikai Banned Banned

    Ok look through old threads on here and on e-budo as there are lots of differences.
     
  4. 2E0WHN

    2E0WHN Valued Member

    If you look on MAP, e-budo and martialtalk.con you will see differnces of what the orgs have to offer. With the Bujinkan having 9 schools (only 6-7 are actualy taught) and the Genbukan having I think 15 or more schools of study, you get to see a major difference in learning. Genbukan students have to learn 1 school completely, while Bujinkan teaches it as a collective and not singular as the Genbukan does.

    Bujinkan training is relaxed and friendly, Genbukan is more strict. Jinenkan is very strict and concentrates more on kata of correct posture, foot and hand in the correct way and so on. Jinenkan is more like traditional karate compared to the Bujinkan with it's more relaxed attitude.
     
  5. Peaceful Tiger

    Peaceful Tiger Happy Member

    I should imagine there would be countless threads on the matter as this is a subject which seems to have a habit of popping up now and again.
     
  6. Banpen Fugyo

    Banpen Fugyo 10000 Changes No Surprise

    ONLY? Uh.. Im pretty sure Tanemura sensei has menkyo kaiden /sokeship in thigns hatsumi hasnt even seen. So... no, you're wrong. Without Hatsumi, we'd be lost, of course, obviously... But there are plenty more paths and very different ways of training across the board.

    On a different note, if someone has all the sokeships in the world, and is a lousy teacher, then what good does that do us? (I'm def not saying Hatsumi is, just trying to make a point) And then someone has menkyo kaiden (complete knowledge) in most of the same ryuha, but you agree with his methodology more, than who are you going to benefit most from?

    I think its unfair to view Hatsumi as the pinnacle of all knowledge. Like I said earlier, without him we'd all be lost, thats a given. But what I'm trying to say is that if you dont agree with the training methodologies, then all the knowledge in the world wont help your taijutsu. People leave the bujinkan because they dont agree with the training, not because they think hatsumi doesnt know what hes talking about!
     
  7. fire&steel

    fire&steel Valued Member

    Kyojutsu ?

    :eek: :rolleyes: :love: :D
     
    Last edited: Feb 4, 2006
  8. Banpen Fugyo

    Banpen Fugyo 10000 Changes No Surprise

    KickYourAssJutsu. .......... damn, its not funny.
     
  9. whiteshadow711j

    whiteshadow711j Hiding in the Shadows

    well here we go, :bang: again I can see the fur is about to fly..
    :rolleyes:
     
  10. Banpen Fugyo

    Banpen Fugyo 10000 Changes No Surprise

    haha, I meant I"M not funny.

    I took his post as joke. At least I hope it was. :confused:
     
  11. whiteshadow711j

    whiteshadow711j Hiding in the Shadows

    The differences, ah... I believe I stated them before, but here we go =

    Genbukan- very strict, must learn all the techniques (wazas and katas) in japanese, you will be tested on your grades (kyu's, dan's) and dont expect to move very fast in the ranks, the Genbukan doesn't give out rank as they will most likely make sure you know your kyu level or dan level by heart before they test you. More schools than the Bujinkan, one of the big advantages is that after 3rd dan you can learn the various schools and get get menkyo scrolls from learning them individually. Some schools that Tanemura has listed, he also states that he has Soke in are the same as Soke Hatsumi (note- this causes political problems between the Bujinkan and the Genbukan affiliates)

    Bujinkan- the less strict of the 3 x-kans, you will get more of a feeling for the techniques, many variations are taught. A theme for the year is set for the Bujinkan dojo's (this year it is shinden fudo ryu), the last of the nine schools are shown to those that are higher level (can you say dan ranks) and the main advantage is Soke Hatsumi, Takamatsu designated him as the official Soke of ninjutsu and he has all the scrolls of lineage for the 9 schools and he tought the other 2 (Tanemura and Manaka) at one point and gave menkyo kaiden scrolls to the 2 who created the Genbukan and the Jinenkan.

    Jinenkan- very strict on form and alot of instruction and emphasis is placed on learning the basics, manaka Sensei has menkyo kaiden in 6 of the 9 schools, Gyokko-Ryu Kosshijutsu, Koto-Ryu Koppojutsu, Togakure-Ryu, Kukishinden-Ryu Happo Biken, Takagi Yoshin-Ryu Jutaijutsu, and Shinden Fudo Ryu. The Advantage- you will learn the basics to such a degree that you taijutsu skills will be great. (note- I was never in the jinenkan so I could be wrong here, this is what I was told)

    now there are others which I call the independents-

    Toshindo- This martial art is Steven Hayes version of the ninjutsu that he learned from Hatsumi, that he teaches from his point of view. (note- I was never in the Toshindo so I could be wrong here, this is what I was told)


    Shinken Bujutsu- Joe Svaral's (an ex-genbukan school) version of taijutsu/ninjutsu with more focus on combat effectiveness, Randori and pressure testing Taijutsu so that it works perfectly in hand-to-hand combat.


    there are other independents that I have not listed.....
     
  12. Infrazael

    Infrazael Banned Banned

    Do they all spar, or practice with fully resisting partners?
     
  13. Yama Tombo

    Yama Tombo Valued Member

    Can we make this the official X-kans thread so there won't be others like it? just a suggestion.
     
  14. 2E0WHN

    2E0WHN Valued Member


    Full resistance? Depends on the technique and if they wish to spend a few weeks in a plastercast getting their bones reset :D
     
  15. CJ

    CJ Killer of all the B.S.

    I am with you on this, just to see how the other half lives.
    or just have a subdevision of the Ninjutsu area for all of the x-can members.
    Because lets face it, People from the bujinkan and the x-can may never tottally get along ever.
     
    Last edited: Feb 17, 2006
  16. Scocia

    Scocia Bringer of Pancakes

    Bujinakan IS part of the X-kans (please note the K too, we're not cans)...
    Im going with you forgot to add "other".
    Why can't we get along? I don't see a reason why any of us couldn't get along with another, they're no different to anyone else as a person. It's just cross training that is advised against.Unless each and every single member of the other X-kans has done something to wrong each and every single Bujinkan student and vice versa...
     
  17. poryu

    poryu Valued Member

    HI

    sorry but this is very wrong in context.

    hatsumi is far from the only authority on Ninjutsu. He is the primary source for the ninjutsu ryu he studies, he is not a authority on other ryu that still contain ninjutsu, and there are a few about still, but ninjutsu is not there primary art. Ther are historians who know more about the history of ninja and ninjutsu as a general subject than Hatsumi does, even though hatsumi is also a ninja historian he is not the number one (I dont think any of them are number one)

    Hatsumi was not the only successor to Takamatsu, surf the web there are plenty of others about who he taught and who recieved sokeships and menky of from him, including one who is still alive teaching Kukishin Ryu Bojutsu. Hatsumi is just one successor.

    Your right here, but both of them did recieved Menkyo Kaiden in Togakure ryu In fact, Tanemura sensei has menkyo Kaidein in Togakure Ryu Ninjutsu from two different people not just one like Manaka sensei.
     
  18. poryu

    poryu Valued Member

    Hi

    The main reason you shouldnt train between each x-kan is mainly due to loyalty and respect for the x-kan and its headmaster that you blong to.

    If your genbukan or Jinenkan you shouldnt be going to your teachers old teacher (Hatsumi) if you do you are in effect implying your teacher is not good enough and you need to go above him.

    if your Bujinkan and your going to the Genbukan or Jinenkan then again your implying that your teacher isnt good enough and you need to go to his junior students for tuition.

    It is very disrespectful to do this in Japanese culture.

    If you belong to a ryu with several branches they wouldnt allow you to train with the other branch.

    Another rreason is each branch will do the same kata or movement in ther eown way, each one could actually contradict the other. For example in the bujiinkan we call it Musha Dori, in the Jinenkan its Muso Dori and visa versa etc. now which is correct and which is wrong - it all depends on which kan you belong to.

    If you live in Japan and train with one teacher you have to ask his permission to start traiing in another ryu, in some cases the other ryu will not accept you unless they have proof you have permission and in some cases will not accept you unless you leave your other ryu.

    However, I see nothing wrong with going and seeing the difference or attending one session out of interest but you can not be a member of both or train regular withboth as a member or a visitor, you have to pick one or the other
     
  19. Infrazael

    Infrazael Banned Banned

    Very interesting. In Chinese martial arts, it is considered a great honor to train with your teacher's teacher.
     
  20. Banpen Fugyo

    Banpen Fugyo 10000 Changes No Surprise

    I think you might misunderstand...

    Tanemura is as high as you get in the Genbukan. Manaka is as high as you get in the Jinenkan, and Hatsumi is as high as you get in the Bujinkan. If your teacher and your teachers teacher dont get along, or had "differences" then things get a little more complicated.
     

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