Unfortunately for me, my sifu was working on his PHD in astrophysics. Being a man of science, he totally dismissed any concept of chi as being foolish and useless to the practice of martial arts. As a result, I was taught nothing about chi, or about cultivating it, or about any chi kung exercises in my system. I don't have a great concept of chi. I don't feel like I have any ability to "move" or "manipulate" chi. It really hasn't directly influenced my style or my abilities. I can say the same thing about the other guys in my class. For the most part though, I don't really see our training suffering too much. We are still able to punch and kick, we have good timing and sensitivity, and are (for the most part) in pretty good shape. That being said, I would like to know of the practice of chi kung, application of chi to forms, and cultivation/use of internal energy is integral to the practice of kung fu. Obviously, for styles such as pakua, tai chi, and xing yi (being soft arts based around the manipulation of energy) chi is integral for the practice of the arts. For other arts, the applications of chi manipulation are a bit more nebulous. What style do you take, and do you feel that the cultivation if internal energy is integral to your style? How does it help your performance in martial arts, and in life in general? Further, do you feel that your training would suffer if you replaced chi kung with other exercises?
I do Wing Chun and I can feel a tingling going from my elbow up my forearm to the end of my little finger during siu lim tao form. Some people tell me this is chi? I think I asked on here a while back about the qigong aspects of the SLT form, overall some people believe it, some people don't. I will say after a hard training session, doing SLT even for 10 minutes is extremely soothing and relaxing. God knows what this has to be with chi though.
I study xingyi, and I think your concept of the "internal" arts might be a bit off. Xingyi or bagua or taiji aren't necesssarily be soft and for the most part they're not based around the manipulation of energy. Believing in and being able to manipulate qi is not necessarily integral to the practice of these arts. Some people, particularly in the taiji community do tend to focus on "energetic" practices, however that is not necessarily the traditional method of practicing. For my part, my teacher does not really speak of qi, and though he hits quite hard, he's never claimed to be hitting with his qi. Quite the opposite, he prefers to explain the technique through anatomical means. Some elements of xingyi practice, standing practice in particular is considered qigong. Some people might say that it build up qi in the practitioner. Some people might say that it builds muscular endurance, relaxed power and breathing technique. Regardless whether qi is involved or not, standing practice does increas relaxed power and breathing technique. All that, and I haven't really adressed your question... I don't know about internal energy. Frankly, I'm quite skeptical. However, as I've noted some qigong and neigong practices are definitely good for my overall health and for skill in my chosen art. My instructor, who's about to finish a masters in anatomy and physiology tends to explain what we're doing in biological terms, and makes no mention of qi. There are a lot of problem when it comes to talking about qi in martial arts. One problem is that no one agrees about what it is, so everyone's talking about something else. Another problem is that sometimes people use a pefectly reasonable explanation, like your body's bioelectrical energy, but then they aren't consistant, because they then speak about moving it about and projecting it into strikes, things that simply aren't physically possible. My basic stance on qigong is that if it helps you, do it. If it doesn't, don't. Whether or not qi actually exists is irrelevant.
Well personally, I subscribe to the whole chi thing. I think that the human body is far to complex to comprehend. The firing of synapses, the activation of muscles, the networks of nerves and blood vessels are far beyond our understanding conceptually. When studying it in books and on paper, it's almost impossible to get the whole picture. So thinking that you can understand it inside your own body and "feel" all the different things going on in your body is impossible. Thus, since they didn't entirely understand, the chinese came up with a drastic simplification of the human body and ran with it. I think that chi is just a simple representation of how our body works. As far as "mystical chi healings," I don't think its "mystical" or even far fetched. Your body has the ability to heal itself, and if you can understand your body by simplifying it's complex functions and interactions into "chi" and "chi flow," then is it that far fetched that you ccould stimulate your body to heal itself? I don't think so. As far as throwing chi, or giving other people your chi by touching them, I just don't know, as I've never experienced it.
There is a general misunderstanding as to what "qi" is. There is also a general lack of realization of the other 4 textures by most Westerners, among other things. In the end, its just a different way of looking at the human body and both systems have pros and cons; neither should be shunned nor should either be put on a pedestal. People try to apply qi to Western ideas and wonder why it seems so far out of whack. Qi is one of many ideas that fits into an entirely different system of thought; there is no 1-1 mapping of TCM into biomedicine or vice versa, no direct translation guide. Talking about qi in a western context is as crazy as talking about the nervous system to a student of Chinese medicine. It just doesnt mesh like that.
I do mostly Praying Mantis and Chen Taiji and I feel like qigong is important to reaching higher levels (not that I'm really at a high level) in both of these. In Chen Taiji we use the dantian to release power. For example, the Chen Taiji way to throw a punch (yanshou-chui, for example) is to send out the arm with complete relaxation (and proper body mechanics) until the knuckles are actually beginning to make contact with the opponent. At this point you tense the dantian, which sends a burst of qi to your fist and makes the explosive motion typical of Chen style. You don't even have to consciously tense your muscles, the dantian qi just kind of makes the punch happen. In order to be able to do this, your qigong practice has to be far enough along to where you can clearly feel your dantian and the arteries in your arm are open enough to allow smooth passage. Praying Mantis is a style known for its speed, but without qigong I feel like the style is somewhat lacking in power. There is a lot of continual attack with the same limb without withdrawing. Qi allows you to tense multiple times in the same motion without withdrawing (I'm not good at this, but I'm trying ). Praying Mantis also makes extensive use of the fingers. You use the fingers to hook, trap, grab and attack. There is also a lot of qinna, dian-xue and duan-mai that require the use of the fingers. In order for the fingers to have the ability to emit the jolting-type power required for these you have to have the finger qi meridians very open so that qi flows to them as soon as you throw out your hand. Qi may be more or less important to different styles, but I think it is an important part of reaching the higher levels of most CMAs. Some CMAs do more training of the qi within their actual forms (Taiji, Bagua) while others require more seperate practice (Praying Mantis).
The extent of chi training I do is breathing work. Qi as far as I know, is life energy, as breath is life energy, therefore qi = breath. And that makes logical sense seeing as all of the soft arts and qi gong classes themselves consist primarily of breathing work.
I guess I still don't buy that qigong is that important, especially if it's not a part of the system you're studying. I know nothing about PM, I admit, but why wouldn't the masters through it's history have added qigong sets if qigong was needed to develop power? In studying taiji or xingyi, arts where the system has built in qigong, I can see tyhe importance, but I'm curious as to why you feel qigong is essential for arts that have done without thus far. I'm sorry if I misunderstood you..
LoL, that would be a perfect quote, except I don't think you know what my opinion of attack proof is.
Well someone would have to come in and correct me if I'm wrong, but I do beleive that five ancestor fist makes use of internal energy (from the lohan ancestor), whether or not there is any strict qigong in the system, I do not know. My teacher would have shown us our first set as a breathing exercise. Now that I look back on it, it would probably be for the purpose of cultivating internal energy.
Wow. Apparently you're the expert. Relaxed power? Yeah, that's real and you can feel it. Qi? I'm sorry, but the jury's still out on that one.
Um, thanks alot newbie. You need to go read the TOS, because bashing someones teacher is definitely in violation. If you can't keep it civil, go post somewhere else.
Yohan, think of "qi" as an empty cup that one can apply any definition to: breath, bone alignment, power projection, body power, inter alia, ad naseum. In my Wing Chun club, we call "qi" "Debbie." "Debbie up that pole form. Put some Debbie in those swords. Debbie up on that pugil stick." What have you. Yes, it's important, but it means so many different things that I tell guys not to get so wrapped up in it. It will come, with practice. The qigong exercises help me, but they are yogaesque, help me stretch and breath. I'm old, I need it.
Thats way out of line man. Bashing somebody to that degree because he harbors one single belief, that has aboslutely no bearing on his ability to transmit knowledge of an art, is asinine and shortsighted. There is more to the equation than whether he talks about qi or not.
Yohan, there is a saying for this thread: fu quan bu fu jing, teach fist not refined movement. I.e., don't worry about the internal stuff at first, teach the gross movements then fill in later. Only one way to get the refined movement, it's one of Uncle Tejon's superhiddensecrets of martial arts: do it again!
Well, in my mind, the time has come for me to attempt to incorporate qi into my kung fu training. I'm going to start trying to cultivate internal energy outside of class and start applying it to my forms (or trying to at least), then to my sparring.
Its from the Damo ancestor. If the Five Ancestor fist you speak of is for the 'Chee Kim Thong' lineage then it does incorporate an internal side, from this lineage I am under the understanding that it is classed as an Internal Style. In Five Ancestors' the first form you learn (and near enough every form) incorporates Chi Gong. Also most TCMA practice Chi Gong in one form or another. It is my opinion to say that you can't be doin Five Ancestor Fist correctly if you are not practicing Chi Gong. "The characteristics of the Luohan system within Wuzuquan are correct posture, dynamic strength and internal power." (from http://www.cheekimthong.com/getBasePage.php?targetPage=3&imageLayout=L&dispLang=Eng )
Yeah I know, and that's what I'm marginally worried about, and partly why I made this post. I've been feeling like a part of training was neglected under my first teacher. Wether or not I'm doing Five Ancestor Fist CORRECTLY is debatable. Whether I've got the whole picture or not is not debatable. I absolutely don't have the whole picture. I think I've missed alot on the internal energy side, correct breathing and posture. Whether or not that makes what I've learned so far or not is wrong, I don't know. I feel that I have a pretty good handle on the external parts of the systems. However, I feel that some of the skills required in wuzuquan that I am lacking in, are the ones that require some of the internal energy concepts. I wish there was someone local that I could train with. However, as I've got 2 weeks of vacation I have to use up before the end of the year, I'm considering travelling somewhere to train before the end of the year.
