[Choi Kwang Do] The cult of CKD

[firestorm]

Im fairly new to CKD after a long gap after doing a previous martial art. I wanted to get back into a MA and after reading some information and attending a couple of classes I decided to join.

When I first started attending the classes I was uneasy with the group reciting of the pledge and tenets, we never did anything like this in my last MA but would accept it as I was trying something different.

The group clapping at every little thing that you do is just over the top and some members just take this too far to see how much noise they can produce by the clapping.

The sir saying was a little odd but I understand that it is to show respect and calling everone by their title.
This is also a little over the top when we are told by our CI that under no circumstances even in the changing room are we allowed to call anyone by their first name. I have also passed by CKD members in the street and been called sir. Sorry but thats just too much.

And the pil sung this and pil sung that, member are saying it all the time. Before a they start a sentence or when they finish a sentence. Im not kidding some members are just like this.

I once tried to make some constructive criticisms of what we had been taught/done after one class in the changing room. Never again they just looked at me like I was some ogre, no one should say anything bad against CKD.

I also could not attend the last seminar for my own personal reasons. But I have been told that not attending the seminar shows a lack of repect for CKD and the instructors. (Whats that all about !!)

Im glad i did not go after finding out that it was £15 per photo to have your photo taken with GMC. Even the die hard members got a bit angry about this.




The other thing that I find a bit Cult'ish is the way the instructers talk about GMC and the practice of CKD.

This is the one quote from an instructer that makes me grin inside every time they come out with it:-

"The instructer tells us that if we get into a fight and get beaten that CKD has not failed you have. As CKD works."

I should start a new thead about all the outlandish claims and over the top comments made by some instructors in class.



I now find that I am looking for a new MA to start as im now tired of all of this in my CKD school. Most of the students seem to believe every single word thats told to them. They have a false sense of ability in their skills of a Martial artist.

There is this middle aged lady a little overweight lady who is a yellow belt senior. She is always over confident in her ability, cant kick above her knee height and does not have much speed or power, but she is always told that she is very good for her level.
When I do defence drills with her she always tries to punch uncontrolable at me. But in these drills you are always told to do it slowly.
So I felt that I would put the pressure on a bit, not too hard but to move around more and to go faster. After the drill she said to me that she now felt that she would not stand a chance if she was attacked outside. I could have told her that long ago, but I do feel that some of the instructors to preach that if you practice CKD then you are indestructable and you will always win the fight. Oh yes and if you ever do then its not CKD its YOU.

Is this just CKD or all the other MAs too?

[BoredNow]

Originally Posted by firestorm

When I first started attending the classes I was uneasy with the group reciting of the pledge and tenets, we never did anything like this in my last MA but would accept it as I was trying something different.

I think other martial arts have something similar - certainly I think that TKD has the same or similar system.

Originally Posted by firestorm

The group clapping at every little thing that you do is just over the top and some members just take this too far to see how much noise they can produce by the clapping.

Personally I like a nice loud class, keeps everyone awake and more energetic, if you've ever been through a class where everyone is quiet and lethargic you'll know how draining that can be.

Originally Posted by firestorm

The sir saying was a little odd but I understand that it is to show respect and calling everone by their title.
This is also a little over the top when we are told by our CI that under no circumstances even in the changing room are we allowed to call anyone by their first name. I have also passed by CKD members in the street and been called sir. Sorry but thats just too much.

I'd agree, outside of class I call my CI by his first name. (and everyone else too!)

In class I think sir/ma'am is important, partly so that everyone can talk to eachother without knowing names, and also for mutual respect.

Originally Posted by firestorm

And the pil sung this and pil sung that, member are saying it all the time. Before a they start a sentence or when they finish a sentence. Im not kidding some members are just like this.

It does sound strange at first, personally I would use this when starting a conversation, instead of saying hello, and also for praise when appropriate.

Originally Posted by firestorm

"The instructer tells us that if we get into a fight and get beaten that CKD has not failed you have. As CKD works."

hmmmm.

Originally Posted by firestorm

There is this middle aged lady a little overweight lady who is a yellow belt senior. She is always over confident in her ability, cant kick above her knee height and does not have much speed or power, but she is always told that she is very good for her level.

And maybe she is? maybe kicking at knee height is an achievement for her? Remember you are measured against your own ability not against someone elses.

Originally Posted by firestorm

When I do defence drills with her she always tries to punch uncontrolable at me. But in these drills you are always told to do it slowly.
So I felt that I would put the pressure on a bit, not too hard but to move around more and to go faster.

And no one has ever said to you "work to the ability of your opponent"? If her punching was wild and uncontrolled ask her to slow down and use good techniques. When you are punching be aware of her abilities and push her to do more and improve, without resorting to scaring her.

Originally Posted by firestorm

After the drill she said to me that she now felt that she would not stand a chance if she was attacked outside. I could have told her that long ago, but I do feel that some of the instructors to preach that if you practice CKD then you are indestructable and you will always win the fight. Oh yes and if you ever do then its not CKD its YOU.
Is this just CKD or all the other MAs too?

But she may have learnt not to freeze, and to try and fight back, that's more than many victims. Plus I bet she will improve over time.


Just trying to put over another point of view. I think you'll find people on MAP are aware of the problems with CKD (mainly of a business/marketing and exaggerated claim nature) however we love the art which is why we are still doing it.

If you do decide to join another art then I hope you find the right one for you. Good luck!

[BRECKDOG]

These observations are on the money- CKD is a cult ($$$$'s ) in more ways than not- You have to make your own personal decision about this.

I spent some time in a business- DS Max- Direct Selling which had alot of commonality in its practice (although much more extreme)- Of course that business was all about money and recruitment so as to build a pyramid to sell from- GMC favours this business model himself.

Cults have some benefit- The positive atmosphere and discipline are very nice, sense of the collective- but as you say this demeans your intellegence and verges on the absurd ie. when it means unreasonable personal demands /and people who are crap being higher grades than you / stopping instructors making or offering improvements to the system.

[firestorm]

I do enjoy alot of the CKD but i'm now asking myself whats the point. I went to learn self defence and to help towards my fitness.

Looking a alot of the higher belts ability I would say that I won't have to make too much effort to get through the belts. Watching members puting in no effort and the lack correct technique during gradings and pass made me think how much could I get away with.

On my last grade I made a significant number or errors on all techniques, pattern, combinations etc. I made very little effort in the bag work and hardly did any ki haps. Did I fail, I was shocked but I still passed and I was also told that I hade made an improvement on my last grade. It just proves that no-one I have ever seen fails in CKD. I did this as I was a bit fed up with CKD on the day and also to prove a point to myself, that CKD requires no effort and its just about the money. If CKD is about the art then you don't have to be very good at it.

Not everyone has to be good and there are some members that are very good and make a great deal of effort and love CKD but they are in the minority.

I did start to get a bit worried when I started to do defence drills and bag work with heigher belts and found that they were slow and get out of breath within seconds. I do feel that if you do CKD only for fitness you will never get fit. Its better that nothing but thats as far as it goes. As the fat and obese members show this to be true. No they are not white belts that have just started to try and get fit but they are members that are not far from reaching their black belts. It just says it all really.

I gave CKD a go but im sorry, it just does not reach any sort of standard that I am looking for.

[mjb]

Originally Posted by firestorm

I do enjoy alot of the CKD but i'm now asking myself whats the point. I went to learn self defence and to help towards my fitness.

I gave CKD a go but im sorry, it just does not reach any sort of standard that I am looking for.

You are obviously very disillusioned with your CKD experience and understandably so. A lot of what you say has been mentioned already on this forum, but not all CKD clubs are like that. I think that the CKD fundamentals are pretty good if they are taught by a skilled (and sane) instructor. I am certainly fitter than when I started CKD as we do concentrate on fitness at our clubs.
With a few add-ons CKD probably could be used effectively for self-defence. The problems arise when the CKD story is swallowed hook, line and sinker and not questioned.
Passing people who are not ready through gradings is irresponsible and also reflects badly on the club and the art.

So PIL SUNG SIR!!! Hope you find something more suitable.
!!!Big round of applause!!!

[BoredNow]

Originally Posted by firestorm

It just proves that no-one I have ever seen fails in CKD.

I have seen people mess up their patterns and have to retest at coloured belt level, so it does happen.

Originally Posted by firestorm

I do feel that if you do CKD only for fitness you will never get fit.

If you mean that the only exercise you do is 2 CKD classes a week, then I agree this is not enough to get you fit. However as part of a workout program I would say it was very beneficial.

Originally Posted by firestorm

I gave CKD a go but im sorry, it just does not reach any sort of standard that I am looking for.

So follow your instincts and find an MA that does give you everything you want. If you follow the advice on this forum as a whole may I recommend a MT/BJJ combo?

Perhaps you have experienced poor CKD school, they do exist (and in most other arts too). Your description sounds unlike my school and I'm sorry you haven't found what you were looking for in CKD.

[firestorm]

Originally Posted by mjb

With a few add-ons CKD probably could be used effectively for self-defence.

What more can anyone say. "Probably" I myslef can not see any point in doing a martial art for anything else than self defence. Probably to me just won't do. If I went to a martial art class and asked if I could learn self defence and I got an answer 'well it might probably be ok for self defence' I would be out the door like a shot.

But I know what you are trying to say.

I think I should 'probably' go and look for something a bit better than CKD.

[LilBunnyRabbit]

With a few add-ons CKD probably could be used effectively for self-defence.

Trust me, it can be used effectively for self-defence with or without add-ons.

[Wynnston]

Originally Posted by BoredNow

And maybe she is? maybe kicking at knee height is an achievement for her? Remember you are measured against your own ability not against someone elses.

A Personal Journey then? Most of us aren't saying there is a problem with them in CKD as a whole what we are saying though is that for self defence situations you cannot and I repeat cannot just measure progress against your own ability. You have to have some sort of concept of who or what you're supposed to be defending yourself against. There are a number of different situations requiring self defence and they probably all require slightly different approaches. Mugging? Attempted rape? Drink or drug induced challenge to a fight? An assault from out of nowhere for no apparent reason?

Let's take a mugging as an example. I haven't been mugged yet (and I hope it stays that way) so I don't really know what force is applied but it is something that people who teach self defence should know. However, in most cases the force would probably be enough to knock you over and in aggravated cases there might be some hard kicks and punches coming in or even a knife pointed at you. You might also be able to assume that most muggings are carried out by males between say 15 and 40. So everyone doing the self defence side of CKD would need to find some way of neutralising or escaping from someone who fits that description.

What self defence in CKD should probably aim for is to give the ability to an apparently un-assuming middle aged man or woman to turn on someone who has attacked them and deliver some effective techniques with real aggression and power. NOT weak techniques done to some vague notion of a persons abilities. They don't have to kick at lightning speed to head height but whatever they do deliver has to have enough force to do the job. A kick to the knee would do it but only if it's done with enough force at the right time. There are people in CKD who train hard, whatever their initial abilities, to reach those aims but there aren't enough of them and the required standards are not systematically enforced.

[black dwarf]

Originally Posted by firestorm

I do feel that if you do CKD only for fitness you will never get fit. Its better that nothing but thats as far as it goes. As the fat and obese members show this to be true.

Like everything else in life you only get out what you put in. If you put everything into CKD ( and I accept that some people don't, but then a lot of people do the same in many other aspects of their life as well don't they? )... believe me you'll get fit. At the end of the day, they're cheating themselves.

As for the rest - what mjb and Bored Now have said.

On self-defence, already said my piece elsewhere.

Bored Now - excellent post.

[ripface]

Hi Firestorm,

I'm sorry you have had such a poor first experience of Choi Kwang-Do. I have been training in the Art for two years now, and am enjoying the experience tremendously. I joined with my two children, and now with my wife taking part as well, we train as a whole family.

Originally Posted by firestorm

Looking a alot of the higher belts ability I would say that I won't have to make too much effort to get through the belts. Watching members puting in no effort and the lack correct technique during gradings and pass made me think how much could I get away with.

You have hit the nail on the head here Firestorm. You will only get out of life what you put in, and if you take classes with such an attitude, then you are wasting your time. Don't pay any attention to the varying degrees of effort that your fellow students put in, but concentrate and focus on your own training. That way you will get the maximum out of your own potential, which I'm sure will be considerable.

Originally Posted by firestorm

I gave CKD a go but im sorry, it just does not reach any sort of standard that I am looking for.

It is not the Art that is of a low standard, but apparently the school that you have found. Please be assured that there are Choi Kwang-Do schools out there that DO deliver the goods, and that are far more professional in their outlook. CKD can be a very effective Martial Art, but any MA is only as good as the people who teach it. I'm lucky to have a school whose Chief Instructors are consumate professionals, and help and support their students, sometimes above and beyond the call of duty.

I hope you find what you are looking for, good luck and best wishes.

Pil Sung.

[BoredNow]

Originally Posted by Wynnston

A Personal Journey then? Most of us aren't saying there is a problem with them in CKD as a whole what we are saying though is that for self defence situations you cannot and I repeat cannot just measure progress against your own ability.

Yes and no. I can't kick above waist height, but that is better than when I joined and couldn't kick above knee height. Give me a few more years I'm sure I'll be better.

If there had been a requirement for me to be able to reach a certain height then it would have taken me that much longer to progress (and to be honest I'dve probably given up with the frustration that the art was skewed towards people who are young and fit and haven't spent 10 years chained to an office desk while their body seized up)

In a self defence situation I don't think it matters whether I kick to the groin, knee or rake my 2" heels down your shin, so long as I have the power to do something appropriate to the situation that might help me escape.

Originally Posted by Wynnston

You have to have some sort of concept of who or what you're supposed to be defending yourself against. There are a number of different situations requiring self defence and they probably all require slightly different approaches. Mugging? Attempted rape? Drink or drug induced challenge to a fight? An assault from out of nowhere for no apparent reason?

Agreed, and the image I have in my mind is of the guy who attacked me when I was 16. I'm positive if I had had the training I do now that situation would have gone very differently.

Whilst a slightly different approach may be needed for different situations (mugging I'd let them have the bag, attempted rape and I'd try to destroy them) there is a certain commonality about a decent punch and kick. By drilling the basics that could be used in most situations we are giving the students techniques they can use and apply as they see fit depending on the situation.

By teaching the students 'if x happens do y' whilst fine at white belt to instil confidence, later on you also need to teach other options and what happens when things don't go quite go to plan. Giving the students the ability to think on their feet in an SD situation is a far more important skill.

Originally Posted by Wynnston

You might also be able to assume that most muggings are carried out by males between say 15 and 40. So everyone doing the self defence side of CKD would need to find some way of neutralising or escaping from someone who fits that description.

Just in the people I know who fit that description I can think of so many variations in body shape, strength and fitness!

I'm not sure that breaking things down into categories like that is helpful as it could create a rigid mindset that causes people to freeze when confronted with something outside that and I think what I said above about being able to think and react appropriately is more important.

Originally Posted by Wynnston

What self defence in CKD should probably aim for is to give the ability to an apparently un-assuming middle aged man or woman to turn on someone who has attacked them and deliver some effective techniques with real aggression and power. NOT weak techniques done to some vague notion of a persons abilities. They don't have to kick at lightning speed to head height but whatever they do deliver has to have enough force to do the job. A kick to the knee would do it but only if it's done with enough force at the right time. There are people in CKD who train hard, whatever their initial abilities, to reach those aims but there aren't enough of them and the required standards are not systematically enforced.

but I would have said CKD does give people these techniques, my kicks may not be that high but they are pretty powerful. I can't think of anyone at my school who I would describe as having weak techniques.

[alister]

Originally Posted by mjb

So PIL SUNG SIR!!! Hope you find something more suitable.
!!!Big round of applause!!!

I see your PIL SUNG and raise you a high five augmented by rabid whooping and cheering....Sir, yes Sir!

[morphus]

I have to admit i am not comfortable with the Pil Sung greeting & saying it for this & that & this, etc. Though, when i got to the Seminar a week or two ago i found myself saying it simply because i knew 'they' expected it. I like it as a motto, thats fine, but to greet someone...
The pledge & tenets i can live with or without doesn't matter, i try to see them as a pledge to oneself rather than how some see it being to CKD.

[cairnsckd]

Originally Posted by morphus

The pledge & tenets i can live with or without doesn't matter, i try to see them as a pledge to oneself rather than how some see it being to CKD.

I'm seeing the cultish behaviour more and more as time goes one. The behaviours of some in CKD are very similar, if not the same as many worldwide cults.

Do you know that since my schools have left CKD, that they've not only disassociated themselves from us, but friendships forged many years back, some even before CKD, have ceased. We haven't moved, we've still reached out to them in friendship, yet we hear similar things over and over again about us... "best not to associate with them" "if you have to, don't talk shop" etc. The sad thing, is that CKD is supposed to be a Martial Art for Health, Self-Defence & Personal Success (or that's the speel we used to get from Kwang Jio Choi.)

Health ... Kwang Jo Choi told me, if I wanted to get fit, join a gym, CKD is not for that purpose.

Self-Defence ... well, there's enough threads on the self-defence of CKD on MAP. That's pretty self-explanatory.

Personal Success ... This is the bit thath really irks me. Personal Success for whom? Those loyal to the fold? Personal Success for Kwang Jo Choi now that there's 18 levels to Black Belt with fees for each level & rebates coming back. Personal Success, from looking at CKD from an outsiders perspective, is business oriented, and $$$ driven. Surely it's not the bit where friendships are terminated because of disassociation? Surely not, this would be cult-like.

Oh, and one more quote. Local CKD Instructors here have been quoted as saying "don't associate with us, we're not valid." ...hey, our used by date is not up yet!!!