Xing yi quan for ring fight and / or street self defence? is it any good for these? or is more like the spiritual internal styles? (i heard that it was the kung fu of the the army in china...)
I study xingyi. I'm still pretty new to it, but I can give you an idea. It is considered an internal art, but still a martial art. Most xingyi people remember what it was created for, whereas a lot of other internal arts tend to draw the health and new age crowd (not that there aren't fighters in other systems). It was indeed at one point one of if not the system taught to infantry men in China. I believe some people out there still have the bayonet form. Tactically, xingyi tends to be a close rang system, controlling the center and striking with fast straight motions. I've heard people say that xingyi is too focused on offense and lacks balance. Xingyi doesn't have a lot of (any?) purely defensive motions, it's all attack and counterattack. It's based on the wuxing or the five fists: splitting, drilling, crushing, pounding and crossing (sounds real spiritual, doesn't it?). They're fairly simple motions that, for me, were directly applicable in sparring situations. As far as for ring fighting/self defense, well I haven't competed with it yet, though I have had a number of friendly spars and found it to work well. Most people have trouble with the way it attacks. I'm pretty comfortable that I could defend myself on the street, though I've had a fair amount of prior MA training. Other people though have competed with it and done well. Mike Patterson, who runs http://www.hsing-i.com (hsing i is another romanization of xingyi) had great success in the Kou Shou fights in Taiwan, eventually retiring undefeated. There are others, but he's the first that comes to mind.
Well put Zac. I'd just add that Xing yi Quan is an "Internal" art in respective that the power used is internal, not external, but it is practiced in an external way. So when you perform a pi-quan for example, you will move fast and seemingly with external power, however the "Intent" and the power used is Chi/Shen/Jing not pure physical/muscular power. I don't like the terms internal/external very much, but it is a way to describe the energy that is used. For street fighting, Xing Yi Quan is very effective. It is a fast and aggressive method that is not about defence, but about taking over the opponents space. Very good in the street! For the ring, providing the applications of the techniques are learnt correctly then it would/should be very effective. Xing Yi, like bagua has lots of locks, throws and takedowns. As for the history.....Xingyi empty hand techniques are based on the spear techniques that used to be taught in the chinese army. cheers Colin.................
Thanks... I hope I didn''t make any glaring mistakes. I forgot to mention a quote my teacher used, apparently said by his grandteacher. Something along the lines of "Xingyi is for the brave and not so wise". That's in reference to it's tendancy to go straight up the middle and attack without really thinking of defense. When I spar I like to make it so that my opponent is too concerned with my punches to throw many of their own. The reverse of the old saying, the best defense is a good offense.
OMG you are scaring me. Don't tell me that you secretly practice Choy Lay Fut. . . . . LOL just kidding. My Si Gung always says this quote, now passed onto my Sifu and now us. . . . . "The best defense is a good offense . . . . always attack, especially in attack, and when retreating, still attack. . . " :woo: OK I have changed this quote a bit, but the idea is the same. ALWAYS ATTACK IN A CONTINUOUS MOTION!!! This is a ploy often used by advanced CLF players -- they will retreat instead of going forward, however using all of their strikes as the go back. When you are tired or has made a mistake, they will suddenly lash out, close in, and seek to overrun you like a big, rolling wheel made of flesh and bone that is bent of crushing you, and there's nothing you can do about it (except mabye the ground, but that's a different story).
I've spent a bit of time training the wuxing moving backwards, though not much, my forward moving wuxing are pretty bad so I figure I oughta get those before I practice too much backwards. But the same is true of xingyi, you're attacking if your moving forward, backward or taking an angle. Your defense arises from your offense in a way. My favorite of the wuxing right now is bengquan, the crushing fist. By appearance, it's a purely offensive movement, just a pheonix eye fist with a little wrist sanp at the end. (Looks like this: http://emptyflower.com/xingyiquan/crushing/ken/beng01.html) In application though it's also a wonderful counter-offensive movement because of the way it pushes an incoming attack offline. It's really cool how attacking really can be your best defense. It also fits me to focus on attacking. I just like to punch. :woo:
I'd love to spar a CLF guy myself... I don't think there are any CLF guys around here. There's a tournament at the end of this month that allows for continuous sparring with rules I like (save for no face shots). Maybe some CLF cats will show up for that. It's a bit expensive, if I'm only competing in that one event, but it might be worth it just to get some competive sparring partners. Where are you located?
I live in. . . um. . . . . Northwest United States. Seattle to be exact. . . . yeah. No face shots? That would really, really **** me off like no other. Half are aresenal is based on breaking the face/neck area.
In the advanced division they allow face shots, but I'm not sure they'd let me spar in the advanced since I'm new to xingyi. That's another downside, I've got ten years of MA training though only a few months CMA, I'd hate to have to spar n00bs just because I'm a n00b to CMA. I'm pretty sure I'd eat them up. Seattle, huh? Well I guess there's not much chance of a spar in the future. Shucks.
Well, if I ever get a chance to be around your town or vice versa, I'll definite give you a heads up. I've been thinking, it'll probably just come down to who can hit harder, faster, and has better conditioning. . . . . lol. . . . xing yi seems brutal, but so does my system. . . . . it will be a blast, just decking each other lol. . . no one's going to back up.
Definitely. It would be an interesting match to say the least. I predict a double KO at 5 seconds into the spar. :woo:
Infra, i'd scrap you, but i'll promise no half step bengs, if you promise no sao chui. Otherwise i'll just see you in the nearest morgue I'd like to point out that i've actually tried using my xing yi against someone of similar ability from buk sing clf, and it was interesting. If we held distance, i'd get whooped, if we closed in, he'd get whooped. Needless to say it was a draw, but only because we'd got severely battered and bruised...in about 20 seconds! It seriously makes me think that if you wanted the ultimate compliment of styles, clf and xy would be #1.
How far do you mean by distance? Everything we learn is close and personal . . . . . . I would never use a Sau Choy from 2 feet away. However, then again Buk Sing is drastically different from our Lee Koon Hung CLF. . . . . . . I have yet to see them fight. Do they not like to close in? I don't know lol. But anyways. . . . . you Xing Yi guys sound like guys who like to hit, and hit hard. Plus you have the attitude to go with it. I compliment you. Far as I'm concerned, even CLF is beginning to slip and fall, with people from our style not training or using their kung fu like it was meant to be. I respect those people who use what they learn like they mean it. Find the biggest, baddest and fastest punch and learn to apply it with as much destructive potential. If I find a xing yi school around Seattle I'll be sure to drop in a check it out.
Regarding ranges... I've sparred some cats whose styles like to be close, but can work at longer range, and generally speaking they prefer to work at the longer range. None of them are as mean as CLF, but a lot of them find that because xingyi tends to move straight up the center line (sorta like wing chun) it seems a lot faster up close than it does with a foot or two between people. Oh and Infrazael, there are PLENTY of xingyi cats who aren't "training or using their kung fu like it was meant to be". Plenty. It's the state of martial arts in general. Also, if you do find xingyi guys to play with, watch out for that bengquan. It's just wrong, it's too fast to hurt that bad.
Same strategy in Praying Mantis. The theory is that no one can defend as fast as you can attack, so if you can keep the pressure on and stymie any attempts at counter-attack it will just be a matter of time before you overwhelm him. Not only do Praying Mantis people throw out a very large volume of attacks in a short time, but the more advanced ones can make make 3-5 seperate attacks with one limb in one continuous motion!
Bengquan is the wood or crushing fist in xingyi. In my line it's basicly a center line punch, with a pheonix eye fist (vertical punch). At the end of it's motion, the wrist snaps downwards pushing that knuckle deeper into the target. It's often combined with a half step bringing the body into the punch. Because it travels directly on the center line it's quick and direct and thanks to the pheonix fist/wrist snap it penetrates. I've read that it's power association is an arrow, and I see that. It shoots out straight and true and seeks to peirce it's target. The first time I surveyed my xingyi class my teacher paired me with one of his senior students for some one on one drills. During one of the drills he came over to us and told his student that a part of the drill that was being done with a straight fist could be done with beng. He demonstrated it at about half speed (on me) and when he delivered the beng I felt my diapragm squish up.
We have something similar in CLF, called the Chop Choy (drilling/stabbing punch). It is done with the pantherfist (which we condition like hell), and the "normal" Chop Choy starts by the ear, and with a twisting motion is driven forward by waist, arm and sliding/stepping. The arm is propelled in a diving, cyclic motion, and the rotational properties of this strike makes it very difficult to block/evade properly. Usual targets are the ribcage, solar plexus, sternum, or throat. The most normal pantherfist twists so the palm faces outwards, but we also have horizontal pantherfists facing up and down, as well as a vertical pantherfist with the palm facing inwards. It sounds really similar to the Bengquan you described -- at least in terms of its usage. Choy Choy = penetration, speed, and elusiveness. Try using the pantherfist sometimes, it's got quite a different flavor than a Phoenix Eye.
Actually, while that sounds similar to beng, it sounds more like zuanquan (drilling fist) our water element. Like your Chop Choy, it rotates (drills) making it hard to deflect. I sounds like you guys rotate counter clockwise (if using the right hand) and we rotate the other way. Zuan winds up with the palm up. In my line zuan is done with a spear hand and with a closed fist. In the zuan form, the fist is delivered kinda like an uppercut crossed with a jab, it comes up and out. I'll have to try it with a panther fist, I could see that motion being devastating if aimed at the throat. I've actually never seen a panther fist used in xingyi, but that doesn't mean much, I'm new. It might be there in the animals. I haven't even touched on those yet. Which is fine with me, I'm happy with the wuxing thus far. How do you guys train the ten seeds? We learn the wuxing as short simple forms, one for each fist, then a form that links the fists and at some point a two man set showing the fists against each other.
