BJJ + Submission Wrestling

[Stalkachu]

Um...I've asked a couple of people down where I train about this, but just wanted to confirm it really here:

What are the primary differences between the two arts, aside from the gi/no gi focus? I'm a BJJ newbie, but I've got a couple of books on submission wrestling that seem to be pretty much BJJ techniques entirely, with no real variation aside from a few of the terms. So...is there really any difference, or has it all kinda blended together at some point?

Just curious, and thanks for any help you can give.

Take care,

Stalks

[jkdberlin]

Due to the use of the Gi in BJJ the controll positions and setups allow more space between the opponents...you have several grips.
No Gi means less grip and less control. There are no subs, setups or controlls that rely on the grip, all you have is the body of your opponent, full of sweat and slippery as hell. This is a major difference!

Greetings

[Yukimushu]

Other than what jkdberlin mentioned above; there aren't huge differences.

It's not rare to see no-gi BJJ competitions; yet they're still considered to be BJJ competitions, rather than sub wrestling

[jkdberlin]

Originally Posted by Yukimushu

It's not rare to see no-gi BJJ competitions; yet they're still considered to be BJJ competitions, rather than sub wrestling

Really? This seems to be depending on where you are
Over here in Germany a BJJ Comp is a Gi competition. Usually you will find some Submission Grappling Competition the next day, no-Gi only.
Same experience while training in L.A. or Brasil. And the ADCC is not named a BJJ competition at all...
Anyway, its once again just a name

Greetings

[SCP_Kensei]

There are those who consider BJJ to be defined by the Gi. To tohers it's simply a term used to describe a gorund based Jiujitsu system.

I think the biggest difference between the two is reputation. So many people are like: OMG WTF HE'S a BALCK BELTin BJJ !!!!!111!!!2311!!

Simply because of the Gracie's success years ago. Recent event have proven that BJJ sint all that, and in fact many BJJ stylists are getting stomped in the ring now because so called "submission Wrestlers" have a more rounded game.

[jkdberlin]

wow, I like this forum

Who are these Submission Wrestlers that "stomp" the BJJ stylist in the ring? Can you name some for me, please?

Greetings

[mai tai]

i do bjj...but i think sub wrestling has more emphisis on leg locks...were bjj has more emphisis on position. same moves for the most part

[LabanB]

Hi Frank,

Hows life treating you?

Isn't it always the same, though? BJJ "appears" to the public, beats everything in sight, others practice to beat the "new" art, and when they do find ways to get around the new system/art, they crow about it never being that good in the first place!!!

Sure "some" SW will be beating "some" BJJers, its the martial artists who is on top of their game who will come out best.

Bill

[SCP_Kensei]

Very Very True.

If they didnt we'd all be learnign the same art, cause there wouldn't be any point in learning anything else.

[notquitedead]

The takedowns are different. With a gi, judo is very useful. Without the gi you need to start using wrestling.

[SCP_Kensei]

Depends, a lot fo takedowns can be used wiht our without Gi (When I Learned a lot my Judo/Jujitsu style takedown in BBT we learned with or without Gi, So I have a lartge arsenal of gi-free takedown I can use).

[Stalkachu]

...I think that answers the question very thoroughly. Thanks all for your advice and ensuing discussions. ^_^ Just like to note that I think it is the ease in which you can rank in BJJ that is more responsible for it's success. Saying you're a purple belt in BJJ is, to some people, worth more than saying you have seven years in submission wrestling. So it's a contributory factor to why it's more popular, since some people are looking to qualify their knowledge with some kind of visible achievement. Anyway, I'm rambling.

Thanks again, all!

Take care,

Stalks

[Linguo]

Originally Posted by Pankration90

The takedowns are different. With a gi, judo is very useful. Without the gi you need to start using wrestling.

True, although some say that to know judo is to know that no gi is necessary for throwing.

[notquitedead]

Depends, a lot fo takedowns can be used wiht our without Gi (When I Learned a lot my Judo/Jujitsu style takedown in BBT we learned with or without Gi, So I have a lartge arsenal of gi-free takedown I can use).

In order to use judo throws (most of which rely on gripping the opponent's lapel, sleeve, or whatever) you have to use wrestling grips- under hooks, over hooks, whizzers, etc. Even in Karo's "no-gi" judo instructional he uses the term "whizzer". The distance is also different; instead of gripping someone's lapel you hold the back of their head which is further away so you have to be closer, for example.

Edit: To illustrate my point, here is a clinch using the gi:

...and here is the no-gi version of the same clinch:

[LabanB]

Hi Stalkchu,

>Just like to note that I think it is the ease in which you can rank in BJJ that is more responsible for it's success. Saying you're a purple belt in BJJ is, to some people, worth more than saying you have seven years in submission wrestling.<

Hmm, ease? I rather get the impression that the Brazilians don't give away gradings that easily. True because of the colours used (I believe blue is the equivalent to white in most other systems) those with no knowledge may make the mistake of thinking someone is highly graded when they are just beginners, but there again we are looking at marketing rather than the art itself.

Bill