Choshi Dori

[Dale Seago]

In this post on another thread I said, ". . .it might be good to open a separate thread on choshi dori to go along with those dealing with kukan".

So here it is.

Text of that post in full:

Originally Posted by Dale Seago

This "throwing people without touching them thing" is, as has been suggested, a matter of how you use space and time within the context of action that is occurring.

If you take the term in the specific way Sonshu means it, then no. It's not possible outside of, say, a Star Wars movie. What he describes is akin to walking over to your living room couch and trying to move it with intent alone. Not gonna happen.

But it is entirely possible to do things which create the illusion, in the perceptions of the recipient and of observers, that this sort of thing is what happened. . .though what you've actually done is mess with an opponent's mind in a way which causes him to throw himself. This fits in with a particular definition of aiki given me 16 years or so ago by the Soke of Yanagi ryu aikibugei, a still-surviving feudal system of samurai aikijutsu:

In other words, it requires interaction with the consciousness and perceptions of the opponent.

As for what is involved in doing this -- I've explained it at some length in a thread over at russianmartialart.com which the original poster titled "Throwing Someone 'Magically'". I'd rather not have to repeat myself, so I'll just give the link here for anyone who'd like to check it out:

http://www.russianmartialart.com/for...opic.php?t=212

If anyone here wants to respond to that, then it might be good to open a separate thread on choshi dori to go along with those dealing with kukan.

[xen]

If your partner is aiming for, say, your face, his initial target is more or less "center of mass". By raising your hand with the correct timing and creating a "frame", his amygdala acquires the new "center" -- the empty space between your face and your hand -- as the target before he's cognitively aware that anything has changed.

interesting you mention the amygdala...i'm reaseaching action selection in the brain and the amyglada is a salient structure of the brain anatomy i'm about to read up on.

though of course the other person's response to what he perceives is what's taking him down

that line is so succinct i felt i had to quote it.

lots of useful thoughts on that link (and connected ones)

cheers.

[Dale Seago]

Tonight a MAP member, whiteshadow711j, showed up for class as he happened to be in town. We weren't working on anything particularly earthshaking tonight, but I did spend the last few minutes of the class (which was unusually small, as summer vacations are taking their toll) working on a bit of choshi dori stuff. Perhaps he'll have a chance to comment later. . .

[garth]

I remember about a year ago I was watching Channel four TV here in the UK when magician Derren Browns programme came on. I can't remeber the title of the episode but in it he entered a Kung Fu Dojo and asked for a volunteer. The volunteer then stood about 8 feet away and Derren Punched the air. The martial arts student fell to his knees out of breath. Derren then several more of these type of things before moving on to something else.

For those of you who have never heard of Derren Brown, he is a magician who tends to lean towards the side of mental magic and hypnosis and uses a lot of Psychology. He does mention some NLP in his books but tends to argue against some of the findings of NLP.

Now having bought and read both of Derrens books and his Lecture tape, available through 'International Magic' Derren never once mentions that he was ever a martial artist, but simply that he is a magician, and of course explains in the books and tapes how he does some of the mind blowing stuff he does.

What I'm saying here is, if we accept that the TV punch was'nt some set up stunt, then it kind of shows that these sort of things can be performed by people not trained in the martial arts.

Don't get me wrong i'm not saying that martial artist won't be able to performs some of the amazing feats like throwing without touching, just that maybe psychology plays a big part. So just my two penneth and I hope this is of use.

[Dale Seago]

Originally Posted by garth

Don't get me wrong i'm not saying that martial artist won't be able to performs some of the amazing feats like throwing without touching, just that maybe psychology plays a big part. So just my two penneth and I hope this is of use.

Certainly it does, and that's an excellent example.

More:

http://www.martialartsplanet.com/for...365#post587365

[hatsie]

about the russian m.a. 'the system' do you know a link for dojo listing, i looked on that site but didn't see any links.

thanks

daz

[Dale Seago]

Try here:

http://www.russianmartialart.com/main.php?page=partners

[Lord Spooky]

Originally Posted by hatsie

about the russian m.a. 'the system' do you know a link for dojo listing, i looked on that site but didn't see any links.

thanks

daz

or here: http://www.russianmartialart.com/mai...age=affiliates

Links to schools in various countries

[Lord Spooky]

Right this I suppose could go in a couple of threads but I thought I'd stick it here
Just to point out there's a similar discussion over in the articles thread based around a Systema article on Paul Genge's site :

http://www.martialartsplanet.com/for...807#post589807

[whiteshadow711j]

I had a great time training with dale seago in san fran on the August 4th and we went over this while training, it was something I had only saw once before a long time ago in my genbukan training. Using a distraction with the hand that causes the opponent to use your hand as the target to attack instead of your face/head. It was very unique as I had seen this performed but never did it myself. I fools you into thinking you are still attacking the opponent (now mind you, the enemy/opponent must commit to their attack in order for this to work) which in a way they still are but they are attacking your hand and not your body and head. It actually fools the attacker into believing that they will hit the person. I had skepticism when I had seen this back in the day. If I wouldn't have done it myself this time I would still have the skepticism, but actually doing it and having it done on me I know that it works which is pretty shocking.

The technique while very simple, works very well.

[kouryuu]

Originally Posted by whiteshadow711j

I had a great time training with dale seago in san fran on the August 4th and we went over this while training, it was something I had only saw once before a long time ago in my genbukan training. Using a distraction with the hand that causes the opponent to use your hand as the target to attack instead of your face/head. It was very unique as I had seen this performed but never did it myself. I fools you into thinking you are still attacking the opponent (now mind you, the enemy/opponent must commit to their attack in order for this to work) which in a way they still are but they are attacking your hand and not your body and head. It actually fools the attacker into believing that they will hit the person. I had skepticism when I had seen this back in the day. If I wouldn't have done it myself this time I would still have the skepticism, but actually doing it and having it done on me I know that it works which is pretty shocking.

The technique while very simple, works very well.

As Dale will no doubt agree, Noguchi Shihan is the master at this, you feel such a fool when he gives you his face, tells you to hit it and you end up hitting his hand because he`s changed one for the other, by the time you`ve realised, it`s tooooo late

[Dale Seago]

Originally Posted by kouryuu

As Dale will no doubt agree, Noguchi Shihan is the master at this, you feel such a fool when he gives you his face, tells you to hit it and you end up hitting his hand because he`s changed one for the other, by the time you`ve realised, it`s tooooo late

I do indeed agree.

[snake_plisskin]

Holy smokes.... So that's what that was! Ed (Martin) was showing this a few months ago, and devoted the entire Sunday class to this and variations therein.

I wasn't there for that class, but another student later demonstrated it to me. We sat around and scratched our heads wondering why it always worked whenever Ed did it, but when we did it, the results weren't quite so stunning. Okay, we actually knew why we felt so awkward and, how to put this? As though we were acting with a bit less "finesse".

Against a noncommited attacker, doing "The Noguchi" doesn't seem to work very effectively. Against me actually trying to drill my friend in the head with my fist--most impressive, as it worked even after we knew what was going to happen. And felt foolish each time, like our brains weren't doing as we'd told them to do (which was exactly what was going on, I figured).

Interesting, to say the least.

--Snake

[Dale Seago]

BTW, in the old out-of-print hardbound "purple taijutsu book" (which I've had for about 20 years, still mint condition, nope not for sale ever ever thank you very much), when Soke is showing the Sanshin no kata he refers to the Ku no kata or "Void" form as choshi dori. Note, however, that back in those days the sanshin were NOT being done with taisabaki and uke-waza first for each one: In the case of the illustration of Ku, the hand just comes up and is followed by the kick.

[specourt]

Originally Posted by snake_plisskin

Against a noncommited attacker, doing "The Noguchi" doesn't seem to work very effectively. Against me actually trying to drill my friend in the head with my fist--most impressive

--Snake

Purely based on the info in this thread so far I tried this twice last night against 2 different ukes without prewarning them.
It didn't work on the first at all, but on the second it worked like a dream.
At the time I just assumed that my timing was better on the second attempt, but in hindsight Snakes above quote explains it perfectly. The first punch had no intent, the second was a nose-breaker.