Lao Jia in 48 hours: What the...!

Nihao ma (Hello),

Yes it sounds Taijiquan express, or junk food to me. But that's what the current head of Chen style Taijiquan is doing to the art. A dude that has just joined our group learned the old frame first set in 2 days, 7 hours per day non-stop. I guess you needed to pass a memory skills test to qualify for the Seminar.


He is aware that what he just learned is pure ballet and nothing else but even so, what an aberration.

Has anyone heard of similar watering down tactics by Westernised Chinese to Ancient Daoist practices.

$$$$ rules this mad world.

Thanks (or sorry ) for reading this rant.

 

Who?

Who are you talking about? Chen Xiaowang? Chen Qingzhou?

 

In 48 hours or the first 6 months, we only practice the Wu Ji and Tai Ji standing postures.

Practice in stillness first.

Or using things in stillness to overcome things in movements. Yi Jin Zhi Dong.

 

Great avatar

I love your avatar, Wanderer.

Who are they teaching the form to? Maybe if the person had already studied the Xinjia then they might at least be able to get the basic idea of the movements in Laojia. Although I doubt if the person will be able to remember the more subtle movements if they will learned it in such a short period of time...

If they are trying to teach the Laojia to people who have never done Taiji before then that is just ridiculous and will do no one any good. Even if your head can remember all the moves, the body has to learn and unlearn a lot as well--a process which could not possibly take place in 48 hrs or 48 days.

I think this might have something to do with the "touristification" of CMA. I saw good video on Chen village on this board showing many accomplished practitioners, but the one thing I thought was really stupid was that it showed foreigners coming for "Taiji tours" of just a few days, some of whom had never even practiced Taiji before... I very much dislike this trend of turning all the former centers of Chinese martial arts study into tourist attractions... The Shaolin Temple, Wudang-shan, and now Chenjia-gou... But, like Gerard said, there's a lot of money to be made...

 

it is not uncommon for teachers to teach forms very quickly to those who are around for only a short time. The idea is that someone wants to learn and does not have a lot of time. Teach them the form fast, they will not/cannot get the depth or any of that, but it still has a use.

learning a whole form, quickly, if one can remember it, gives one a basis for training and developing a little bit until they can come back the next time. It is just the way the modern world is. It is not a bad thing necessarily. I think in some cases it is just generous. it is done with the expectation that they must come back and build something upon it in the future. if they dont do that, that is not the teacher's problem.

I saw this happen in several schools in China that I was involved with. No one ever left with the idea that they were great after learning the beginner version of a form in a week. The skill of the teacher being so far beyond them lets them know this. The form, if you can remember it is a start and something to work on.

I prefer to teach one move at a time, and so does my teacher, but when people travel a long way to meet you and train with you for a short time, its ok to be generous.

 

Firstly (and quite ironically given the other thread re language and learning taiji... (and also a bit petty on my behalf I know))... its Ni Hao... Ni hao ma? is more how are you...

2ndly... what the is about right Gerard... it took me 10 months of daily practice to learn the form... fair enough someone with limited exposure to a teacher as Mo Ling says may wish to learn a higher number of movements but ime it doesnt take after just a short time...

 

would you like fries with that...?

Josan. Ho ho Gerardlo (lol)
I think this is a matter of perspective tbh.
If you learn a 'pattern' and understand the theory you can practice til it comes 'right' - IF... (and it's a very very BIG 'if')
I'm also glad like Shadow that we can see here an example of an Asian teacher being somewhat less than 'pure' in their approach - it debunks the myths and shows we are all just human beings in IMA... hurrah!
I learnt a large part of the first section of Yang middle frame in a six hour seminar last year, but I know I did not 'get' it precisely internally or externally and I'm good at remembering forms I can hardly remember it now a year on... so I doubt many people would be able to retain even the external aspects of a form in a weekend... on the other hand.... ALL training influences what you do thereafter - my existing large frame Yang variant form has never been the same since that seminar and continues to grow.
In conclusion:
If you're looking for tradition and purity, sign up for the 'ten-to-twenty' plan
If you're on a journey, grab what you can where you find it and train til you stop breathing lol
There are no easy paths in IMA imo & ime lol
Just keep going
Jaolah
:Angel:

 

whole form?

I was tempted by Tai Chi Caledonia this year, and if I had gone (too many other commitments) I was going to attend:
"Chen Style Taijiquan - Wang Haijun Working on this 18 Movement form which was created by Chen Zhenglei from the old 1st form (Laojia Yilu). It is short, easy to learn, and is a good health maintenance form with silk-reeling spiralling movement at its core.

Would I have mastered it? nope. Probably wouldn't have even remembered it fully. I might have worked on remembering the first half a dozen postures though. Half a dozen postures would be ok, and you might get a 'bit' of depth from it. Better two or three 'deep' postures, than 50+ 'shallow' ones. Otherwise it's just 'tourism', and not teaching.

Giving a course over 14 hours? I would only do grasp sparrows tail and singlewhip, or its equivalent.

I've attended a two hour workshop where we didn't even get to ward off right, even though everyone knew the complete form! My legs were burning that day! ouch!

It's the usual adage of quality over quantity. That's what we need. Unfortunately what we want (as a society in general) is quantity over quality.

 

Seminars

I think brief seminars with masters most definitely are useful, but I think the focus should be more on principles than on individual movements. I mean, if you travel a long way to see some great Chen master, aren't you just wasting a great opportunity if you spend the whole time trying to get him to teach you a lot of new movements? You could easily learn the movements from a video tape. If you're going to do forms with a master you don't usually have access to your time would almost certainly be spent having him correct and comment on your form.

Good seminars are ones like TJB talked about earlier, where a master talked about the concepts, applications and dantian movements involved in Peng, Lu, Ji and An. I suppose the problem might be that if people who have little or no Taiji experience decide they want to attend, then the master may feel obligated to teach them something that conforms to their idea of Taiji.

Nonetheless, I do agree that there's nothing wrong with teaching a form with the expectation that the student will go home and work on it many times on his own. My teacher in Taiwan taught forms at a speed most CMAists would consider very fast, but that was because I always went home and practiced the segments I had learned many times. This way, we didn't waste class time just memorizing and repeating movements, but could rather spend more time correcting and polishing.

 

Thanx Onyomi - just to clarify - the seminar I went to was only open to people who'd been practising Taiji for at least five years and had a good grasp of their form. (Mainly instructor/senior student level) We spent the morning doing 'Yang 8 Brocades' part 1 & 2 (a kind of neigong/fajin building exercise, I've never seen before or since in the west) over and over, then we worked on the first half of the first part of the middle frame long form, so we covered up to the first brush knee and twist step. We also did some basic fixed step push hands. The work rate was more rapid and intense than any other training I'd attended before or since with little talking and lots of doing. Every move of the form we began learning was shown as a two man form/application as we learnt them. Q & A was encouraged throughout. Best training I've ever had - would definitely recommend them as teachers.

 

"I saw good video on Chen village on this board showing many accomplished practitioners, but the one thing I thought was really stupid was that it showed foreigners coming for "Taiji tours" of just a few days, some of whom had never even practiced Taiji before... " <--Onyomi

Well, think of it this way though. If the tourist knows only very little of Taijiquan, what better place to introduce them to it than the Chen village? A brief introduction can give them the background and some of the theory and some hands on experience, and if they like it they have a foundation to go back home to study it. I think it would be valuable for people to get an idea of what Taiji is all about before commiting to it or not taking it because it seems to daunting. I know that's why a lot of other MA schools do, they expose the prospective student to a various portions of the art to encourage at least base understanding and to try to pique the interest of the person into continuing to learn.

 

The first dude.

 

Chen Xiaowang...

Yeah, that's the same guy who appeared in the video clip on Chen village posted earlier. His Taiji is definitely excellent, though I would say probably not as good as that of Chen Qingzhou or Zhu Tiancai... (but then who am I to judge ). However, it was also him in the video that was accepting random tourists with no Taiji experience for training at Chenjia-gou. I think it just depends on the teacher's attitude. Ironically, he might be more on the side of those Chinese who doubt that foreigners can ever really "master" an art as complex as Taiji and therefore doesn't mind taking their money in exchange for a "Taiji sampler." I don't really blame him, to be honest. If you knew how incredibly underpaid many great martial arts masters are in China nowadays you might not blame him so much for bowing to the power of the almighty dollar. I mean, some of these people have spent enough time studying their art to be making $250 an hour as a psychiatrist in America, and yet probably have salaries on par with American garbagemen.

 

Ony,

Chen Xwang is not a real Daoist. He is just a merchant trying to promote a business. A real Daoist selects his students.

Read this profiles and compare please:

Chen Xiao Wang

Liu Hung Chieh



Yang Shao Jung


Can you spot the difference now?


A charlatan vs. the genuine masters.

 

Gerard thats just arrogant... you assume you know what a "true" master is or does... sure your "true" masters select their students... probably based on gullability and blind obedience...

I have had a couple of lessons from CXW's son and if the father is anything like the son then I have to say its all good... there was no flim flammery or bs... I practice mainly via the Chen Qing Zhou lineage and so our style is pretty different but he recognised this and instead of trying to convert me to his way we worked on the basics (Zhan Zhuang, Chansijing and postures)...

A real Daoist... hmmm please explain what exactly a real Daoist is... and please try to be objective... I have been reading alot about the Dao and it seems that really everyone could be Daoist... they just dont know it yet...

 

Also a point that should be considered... its actually taught in 14 hours... (2x 7 hour days)... not 48 which makes the figures somewhat more incredulous...

 

Daoists the only good Taiji teachers?

I know Chen Xiaowang is not a Daoist--and neither are the other masters I mentioned before. But you don't have to be a Daoist to be a good practitioner of Daoist-derived martial arts, just as you don't have to be a Buddhist to do Shaolin. Of course, you do need to meditate, understand qi and so forth to be a really good CMAist, but these really come from the more "scientific" side of Daoism, which is often compared to the western Alchemy movement.

I don't think you can blame martial artists for trying to make money teaching so long as they don't take it to the degree that the quality of teaching becomes severely compromised. I mean, really good martial arts teachers are usually professional martial artists who have chosen to devote their lives to the study and promotion of their chosen art or arts. If they don't charge money for teaching how are they supposed to eat, much less afford the mortgage payments on their school, much less attend conferences and seek out other martial artists in order to deepen their understanding and become better teachers?

You may admire the life of a wandering beggar monk, but I doubt if you could really take the lifestyle (no internet access for one thing ). Also, even though such people's devotion to spiritual advancement is admirable, I don't think that has anything to do with their abilities as martial artists or teachers. The bottom line is, you reach the higher levels of any martial art by practicing hard with a good teacher or teachers over a number of years. Whether you do that practice on an isolated mountaintop or in your NY city apartment is really not that relevant.

 

Good post Onyomi...

 

I second that - making money and being ethical is possible. Money is just a materialised form of energy anyway....

 

CXW is OK but the not the real deal. I was a bit impulsive in my first post. I must apologise. Sorry Chen Xiao Wang. I should correct myself because I acted like a BITCH!

A real Daoist is one that lives according to the natural laws of the Universe and has trascended the three levels of Humanity-Events, Earth and Heaven. Basically one who has reached Shen level. Not many of this kind today. Only in isolated areas of the world (not necessarily China). If we stick to China then expect to learn from that master mystical powers.

In Chile is taught in 2 sessions of 7 hours each. Don't be a stubborn Taurean!

Fair enough. I see your point. It's good.


About TB, I just ignore his gibberish talk