To RedBagani Filipino Emptyhanded arts-Pangamut,yaw-yan

[Viking]

Hi RedBagani,


<<Mod note: the rest of this post was removed due to being all text speak. please remember that text speak is uneccessary and unwelcome on the forum, as it make posts much more difficult to read. Thanks. Aegis>>

[RedBagani]

Hello Viking,
Nice of you to include my name to the topic of this thread. I would have prefered, however, if you had included other names instead, such as the names of other (primarily) empty-handed arts such as Tat Kun Tou and the like. Even if the moderator edited your text (demolished the content, actually)I can guess that your interest is in Filipino empty-hand arts in general, and in Yaw Yan in particular.

That requires a loooooong article, but i will try to share whatever I know. I have to do it in installments. Before I do that, let me caution you not to believe everything you read in the Net. Double-check all your sources, including me, so you do not fall into the same mistake you did before in another thread; swallowing hook, line and sinker of an error because you read only the propaganda of one group.

I guess I will start with how Yaw Yan become one of the deadliest empty-hand art that emerged in the Philippines in recent years. I know that Yaw Yan practitioners prefer to call their art "The World's Deadliest Martial Art", and they are taught to believe in that line, but I know I am not committing an error when I state that it is only one among many.

I do not need to repeat dates, facts and other information about the history of Yaw Yan that you can gather from its official website and from other threads. I will just give you my personal observations.

In the early 70's and 60's, which were the formative years of Yaw Yan, the more popular contact sports were boxing, amateur wrestling, judo and karate. Kung Fu was rarely seen because the Chinese communities were secretive of their arts. Arnis was taught in a grim and determined manner and it was not so popular. Muay Thai and Kyukoshinkai Karate were unheard of.

By the early 70s, kickboxing matches were becoming more popular. Most players came from a Karate background, and they trained in Kata, point-system, semi-point system before joining full-contact bouts. Professional boxers did not join, except for the odd one or two since fighting inkickboxing was not lucrative. When YawYan players fought in the ring, the were therefore fighting mostly Karate players with or without boxing experience. Yaw Yan exploited the natural advantages of the kick, namely superior strength and longer range. Amateur boxers found out that it was difficult to close in on a good kicker and often got punished for having only two weapons in the ring. Yaw Yan had four - two fists, two legs. Even at close range, the Yaw yan fighter prefered to use his feet, and Yaw Yan developed a wide array of kicking techniques to enable them to kick at punching and close ranges. The spinning backfist also caught several boxers by surprise.

The Karate guys, mostly Shotokan or Shorinryu stylists, also had good hands like the boxers, and had the slight advantage of knowing how to kick as well. It was their footwork that was their undoing. Steeped in the Karate maxim of "One Hit, One Kill", these early Karate fighters often tried to rush at their opponents and finish the fight with powerful punches. What seemed to be effective techniques in point-system, semi-contact and kata tournaments proved inadequate in the full-contact ring. The Yaw Yan footwork was superior to the rushing, linear, lock-step footwork of their early protagonists. They could dance away, like a matador nimbly avoiding a bull's horns, which gave their art the name Dance of Death, "SaYAW ng KamataYAN". The karateka was also had the disadvantage of using gloves, which blunted their main weapons. Yaw Yan, on the other hand, developed devastating kicks similar to Muay Thai's. Yaw Yan had discovered early in its developing years that in full-contact kickboxing, the follow-through type of kick was an advantage over the snapping (sometimes kick-for-point) type of kicks.

Sikaran players found that out too. In Sikaran, the traditional game is played in a ring without ropes. A player who is pushed/kicked out of the ring loses points. One can win simply by pushing out players repeatedly, or having more hits scored. (Modern Sikaran rules have changed). Yaw yan, on the other hand, sought knock-out power in most of their kicks. Compared to Taekwondo, Yaw Yan has more powerful kicks. This is not to say that Sikaran kicks have no knock-out power. The founder of modern Sikaran, Col. Melito Geronimo, was reputed to have knocked out a carabao with a kick. It is just that, when comparing the programming of the fighter, Yaw Yan is more consistent in producing knock-out kickers.

This is not just a simple case of the better man being the better fighter. Programming and training should be considered as very important factors for the success of Yaw Yan. In a dog fight, the breed of the dog is significant. In a fight between a chihuahua and a pitbull, the chances of victory for the pitbull is very high. In kickboxing, it is the training program and fighter selection.

Soon, many other stylists were beginning to develop more fluid footwork. A Karate stylist, by the name of Topher Ricketts, began exploring other methods of developing fighters for the ring instead of just relying on traditional Karate training, which at that time, placed a lot of emphasis on forms training. He studied Kung Fu, recruited professional boxers and emphasized sparring. Ricketts later organized the Bakbakan, which became a rival of Yaw Yan. A lot of matches occured between the two. I hesitate to judge which group was superior. It is enough for the moment to say that Yaw Yan found a worthy match in Bakbakan. There were other clubs that gave Yaw Yan a run for their money (there were also underground fights too), but it is safe to say that Yaw Yan emerged with a solid reputation as a very effective Kickboxing style.

Viking, I have just gave a short description of Yaw Yan and general techniques that I hope can explain how they got their reputation. Next installment, I can tell you how Zapata defeated a former professional boxer in a classic fight of kicker versus puncher match. If you are still interested, I can tell you other fighters exploited a weakness in Yaw Yan and defeated some of their fighters. This narration will include how Rolly Tadefa of Tat Kun Tou defeated Zapata in 1984 at the Rizal Coliseum. I can also tell you how an Indonesian Pencak Silat fighter defeated Zapata. Till next time. Viking, I think you owe me coffee.

[Viking]

Thank u Very much RedBagani and defeinitely i owe u much more than a coffee. plz continue with this discussion,and after that can u plz explain abt the pure indegenious empty handed systems in Philippines like panagamut In PTK and if there any other systems.
thank u

[soulguru]

hi red,

very informtive re the kickboxng stuff... we need objective inputs like yours. keep it up. ehehe. see you in the Silat forums...

[Brunstick]

wow, once again a very informative read from mr. bagani. i'm going to the philippines in august! hope to see you there!

-nico-

[shootodog]

good post. i see you have had a lot of experience with the yawyan. just a quick question, did tatkuntao ever fight in the underground against the teams? double delta? baracuda? against bakabakan and yawayan and gendo?

just wondering.

[Black_Grass]

Just a clarification to Red B. post,

Bakbakan is not the style but the club/organization as many different styles are practiced in the organization. Sagasa is the actual method developed by Christopher Ricketts. Yuli Romo a senior in Bakbakan also is a Tat Kun Tao teacher. I got some training in Yan Yan (old school) and Muay Thai from a Bakbakan member Boy Garcia and his brother Fred who was one of the orginal Yaw Yan students. As well Monsour Del Rossariois a Bakbakan member and is a driving force in Tae Kwan do is the Philippines.

All that being said Sagasa is the method of instruction one would receive if one was to train with Bakbakan hence Bakbakan to a certain extent is synonomis with Sagasa.

Vince
aka Black Grass
Bakbakan International
Canada

[burungkol]

Good day RedBagani, nice post! you do seem to know much about yawyan's beginnings.
I do agree with you that the programming and training of yawyan fighters helped a lot to win those matches. every style and every clubs have their kicks/punches and so on.... but it is the character, discipline, and fighting techniques that gm nap taught us that won those matches.
I want to hear your story about Rolly Tadefa of Tat Kun Tou defeated Zapata in 1984. I do heard and seen pictures of the Tadefa-Zapata fight but to my knowledge Prof Zapata had not lost to a single match. I am a part of the Pasay Team under Prof Zapata and his brothers. I'll be more than happy to collaborate things with you so as to clear things up.
Coffee for both of us!

[RedBagani]

Hello Everybody,
Sorry to keep you waiting for my next installment; I can't be at the computer everynight. Now that there are more of us,I hope that others can fill in some gaps. I can only paint a general picture in broad strokes so I will surely have some gaps in my narration. I did not witness each and every fight, so there will be many things I can't answer. As to the underground fights that occured, these were accessible only to the fighters, their friends and the organizers. These were organized for bets which were not sanctioned. Just like the Tupada, the form of cockfighting that is done illegally, these fights were not annouced publicly. Some people may frown on the idea, but the other side of the story is that if there were no such fights, there would have been less motivation for a fighter to go against another trained fighter in a full-contact match. The official kickboxing matches did not bring as much prize-money as professional boxing. Even today, there is really no professional class of kickboxers in the technical and legal sense. If one studies the development of Muay Thai, for example, one will find out that it was the phenomenon of betting that supported the sport. The role of illegal betting in the development of Philippine kickboxing has not yet been studied. The other questions will have to wait, but rest assured, they will be answered.
For the comparison between YawYan and Boxing, I chose to use the match that took place at the Rizal Stadium sometime in 1989 (I forgot the actual date) between Emilio Zapata of Yaw Yan and Tisoy Sescon of the Bakbakan club.
Boxing, as most people know, is a demanding sport that entails ardous physical conditioning, rounds of hitting different types of bags, sparring with moving opponents and lots of roadwork. It basically has only four techniques - jab, straight, hook and uppercut. The rest can be regarded as variations of these basic four. Professional boxers, though, are also experts in the subtle use of the headbutt and hidden elbow. Tisoy Sescon was a former professional boxer who had an international rating. He had fought in Korea and abroad. I saw him a few times, and his uppercut was terrifying. When he shadowboxed, his fists went "Whoosh, Whoosh" as they cut through the air. For his fight with Zapata, he was taught how to kick in Bakbakan.
The conditioning of the yaw Yan fighter was equal to that of a professional boxer. One unique bag they used was a rope-covered log that the fighters used repeatedly to harden their legs. During the period when most fighters were striking with the instep or ball of the foot, the YawYan fighter used hardened shins just like Muay Thai fighters. Aside from the basic boxing punches, the YawYan fighter also threw spinning backfists/forearms and a wide variety of direct, jumping, spinning, crouching, curving, hooking kicks that numbered over 80. The general strategy in Yaw Yan was to kick hard and kick repeatedly. By the time Emilio Zapata was matched against Tisoy, he was already a seasoned fighter.
The battle, therefore, was a match between two well-trained veterans of the ring. I was in the bleachers watching this fight, and I may have missed afew details but it went something like this. Both fighters were eager to finish the other. Both had heart. Sescon tried to close in but Zapata maintained his kicking range skilfully. From long-range, he sniped at Sescon with his kick who was unable to close-in to use his punches effectively. It was a convincing display of the Dance of Death. A few times, it seemed Sescon caught Zapata but Zapata was able to extricate himself and stay away. He did not attempt to trade punches with Sescon. Frustrated, Sescon tried to kick back at long range but it was clearly a futile attempt to kick a master kicker. Both fighters played a few antics. Zapata went to the ground for a scissors-kick. Sescon did a flip to stomp bodily on Zapata but was instead kicked away in mid-air.
Sescon was forced to revert to do what he knew best and stick to boxing. He failed to close-in again and again, as he received powerful shin kicks to the head until he started bleeding. To his credit, Sescon proved to be a tough guy. A lesser fighter would have been knocked out by any one of Zapata's kicks but he stayed on his feet. I could hear the crack of the kicks as they landed on target. Finally, the referee stopped the fight. It actually lasted more than a round. It happened so long ago I forgot how many rounds it took. Zapata of Yaw Yan was declared winner over Tisoy Sescon of Bakbakan.
This match clearly showed that as a combat art, YawYan was at least at par with professional combat sports. The use of power-oriented kicks was a clear advantage for the YawYan fighter over another fighter not trained to counter kicks, even if that opponent had good hands. It demonstrated that having four weapons was an advantage over having just two.
By this time, Rolly Tadefa had already retired from fighting and was a referee in another match that featured Dodong Sta. Iglesia of Bakbakan against an Afro-American. Dodong lost that match.
There were also other exciting bouts that evening that included not just Filipinos but also foreign fighters. The incident that happened towards the end of the tournament showed exactly what was wrong with Philippine kickboxing. It seemed that the huge trophy that the winners held whan they were declared was being shared by ALL! Somebody tried to walk off with it, there was an argument, a scuffle...then a shot rang out and a bullet went through the roof of the stadium. Everybody - spectators, the fighters on the ring, officials, everyone- scampered for safety. It was a funny sight. In less than 5 minutes, the stadium was almost cleared. After several minutes, my friends and I sneaked back to take a look but everything was already anti-climatic. After that incident, no national kickboxing venue was ever held again at the stadium. In fact, the so-called national organization disintegrated due to politicking. It made entry of other contact sports such as Muay Thai, Sanshou much easier years later. Many YawYan players, for example, shifted to teaching Muay Thai.
Now to clarify a few things- shootodog: I am not so sure how many underground matches the Manila Tatkuntou group entered. Much of it was hushhush.
Black Grass - Boy Garcia was originally a YawYan fighter, one of their best, before he went into the movies and joined Bakbakan. He fought a classic battle against Boy Ursal, a top Tatkuntou fighter.
Burungkol - I have Viking to thank for bringing to my attention that misinformation about Zapata defeating Tadefa 21 years ago. That photo in the official YawYan website supposedly showing Tadefa being beaten is grossly misleading. The caption says"Tadefa fighter", insinuating that it is Rolly Tadefa that is being kicked and beaten. If this is not misleading, I will call it a deliberate LIE that needs to be corrected immediately. I have a photo taken at the exact moment the referee was raising the arm of Tadefa and declaring him winner while his opponent, wearing typical YawYan shorts with the name EZapata embroidered concedes defeat. Now unless Emil Zapata lent his shorts to another fighter, or if he exchanged his shorts for Tadefa's long pants just before the declaration, I don't see how anyone can explain that it wasn't Tadefa who REALLY won. I am interested to see how YawYan apologists will attempt to cover that story up. I hope that all of us here will not be partisan, but adhere simply to the truth.
In my next installment, I will present the development of Tatkuntou so one can have an understanding how such a style also stand as one of the deadliest martial art that emerged in the Philippines.

[soulguru]

yo red,

very academic on this, ey. very good... its high time to focus on facts and not just hearsay. i for one am learning a lot also re history as well as those so important yet small anecdotes/snippets of observation.

as it is, kickboxing will always have a place in my heart, ehehe... i'm sure you know that.

[shootodog]

I am not so sure how many underground matches the Manila Tatkuntou group entered. Much of it was hushhush.

ok. thanks. was just wondering if they ever fought in the circuit against the double deltas and baracudas.

[RedBagani]

Originally Posted by Brunstick

i'm going to the philippines in august! hope to see you there!

-nico-

Hello Nico,
I have to make this reply real quick. I don't want the boss to see what I am doing. Hehehehe! It would be nice if we could meet. Yeah, that is no problem. Just clarify what you mean because as an Ilocano, I want to make sure I don't end paying for an expensive dinner. Are you inviting to meet me, do we go Dutch or do you expect me to pay for the dinner? I hope you don't think too bad about my being too business-like. We Ilocanos have often been compared to the frugal Scotsman. We are suspected of using both sides of toilet paper just to save. We are nothing like that at all. We simply use half of what we need.
Regards

[Brunstick]

Originally Posted by RedBagani

Hello Nico,
I have to make this reply real quick. I don't want the boss to see what I am doing. Hehehehe! It would be nice if we could meet. Yeah, that is no problem. Just clarify what you mean because as an Ilocano, I want to make sure I don't end paying for an expensive dinner. Are you inviting to meet me, do we go Dutch or do you expect me to pay for the dinner? I hope you don't think too bad about my being too business-like. We Ilocanos have often been compared to the frugal Scotsman. We are suspected of using both sides of toilet paper just to save. We are nothing like that at all. We simply use half of what we need.
Regards

oh no no, i don't expect you or anyone else to pay for dinner. lol! we could just go out drinking with the other mappers over there, i'll even buy a round of beers (or two, or three; you get the idea)!

One thing i have to say though, if you're in the netherlands and on a date, do not ask your date if she wants to go Dutch; she IS Dutch! (Just like how if you're in china and you ask a local if he knows any place that has good "Chinese" food)

Now why would anyone suspect Ilocanos as using both sides of toilet paper? the dreaded "double dip" haha!

Until August then Red,

-nico-

[burungkol]

Originally Posted by RedBagani

I am interested to see how YawYan apologists will attempt to cover that story up. I hope that all of us here will not be partisan, but adhere simply to the truth.

Ok, thanks for the info. I then have to refer these things to my seniors and hopefully clear up these things. All of us do wanted to stick to what's really true. Thank you for your insights. BTW, nice detailed posts! Thanks for sharing

[burungkol]

Originally Posted by Brunstick

oh no no, i don't expect you or anyone else to pay for dinner. lol! we could just go out drinking with the other mappers over there, i'll even buy a round of beers (or two, or three; you get the idea)!
::::::::
Until August then Red,
-nico-

august huh? ok, one round is on me!!!!