Non Believer

Hi everyone,

Can someone please clear this issue up for me.
I was always taught that in FMA that weapons first, empty hand second, locks and joint manipulation third.
And that in all three, the movements not only compliment each other but also are applied in self defence and combat.
And here lies my dilema.
No matter how hard i try to understand it's theory the more i realize that the whole three areas have less in common, then in similarities.
What i mean by this statement is that how i would attack with a knife i would not do it empty hand.
How i would move to restrain someone is totally different then how i would move to strike someone.
Maybe i was taught wrong.
But all i can tell you is that, when i spar with a knife and when i spar empty hand, footwork to defence to striking have very little similarities.
Can someone please shine a light.

 

If anything, I'm surprised your footwork changes with the weapon. That's the main thing that was taught to me as being the real foundation stuff, to be applied no matter what's being used.

 

You will find that is the consequences of learning pieces of different arts. They do not blend together.

In FMA, I personally learnt how to use a stick first...the strikes and blocks and then gradually locks, disarms and takedowns and then more reaction drills which I could throw my new learnt locks etc into.

Along side the initial stuff, I did learn some dagger and empty hand but not to a level of really understanding it....just forfilling the drills intention really as I was taught, like you do to begin with. Later in my training I obviously studied the other areas in greater detail and then started to see the blends and similarities with transitions from one to the other.

But to explain the flow from weapon to empty hand....if you were disarmed part way through an attack or something you can't stop and think, hang on I will now change stance and use my kickboxing skills (I am right leg forward with stick, but when I learnt thai boxing I found I favoured left leg forward)....one reason like we have said before...FMA'ers will always assume you could have another weapon so we generally stick to the rules of the FMA style that we have leant until we are sure there is not a weapon in the equasion.

But to further explain the transition from weapon to empty hand....it usually requires an alteration of your range to get closer reach for empty hand and for example should you use your stick to act as a bar in a particular lock or disarm, this is simply now replaced with your arm acting in the same method as the stick would have. If you are disarming the stick by a strike or pull on the way through with your stick...the arm or hand now does this. If you were using a dagger the locks and disarms are no different empty hand against a weapon....and in replacement of your slash and stab attacks you would simply punch and limb strike in replacement of the dagger. This is what is meant by transition from one to the other.

So in simple terms, the whole interpretation is the same, your range is just closer and you use your locks and strikes etc in vertually the same way, the method behind it is exactly the same.

Try it...pick a lock or disarm that you favour with the stick and then replace it with your arm or hand...it works, it has the same method of achievement.

But there is also transitions in other areas. You probably have learnt some double stick drills....but have you learnt the transitions of the same drills to empty hand. For example sinawali six count...more or less the same in all styles of FMA, so I will explain this one as a transition to empty hand:

Starting from the right side you would have your right hand/stick cocked on your right shoulder, left one underneath....right hand strikes first across to the left shoulder, followed by left out to the left side and the right jabs back out to return under the left hand which is now cocked on the left shoulder, now you do the same with your left over to the other side. (Perhaps I could have explained this better) But anyway....drop the sticks and the idea is exactly the same on a jab or cross attack.......

You would parry with the right, grab with the left, tugging slightly to pull opponent off balance and striking with the right and vice versa with the left side...left parry, right grab, left punch/palm strike....both of these can be initiated on the inside or the outside of the arm. so depending on which arm was coming in from your opponent you can step to either side and use this technique and this easily flows into a takedown and finish off.

And as this drill works for jabs and crosses, alot of our dagger drills work off a hook punch also. For example block and elbow (crossada with a stick) has the same effect on an empty hand hook.

There is alot more drills and techniques that have transitions from stick, to dagger, to empty hand etc....and varying combinations of weapons.

But what you say about your method of attack with different intentions being different is right....that is why we only deal with angles not technique behind the encounter. The stance does not matter, the intent behind the strike or action does not matter, different weapons as I said before requires an ammendment in range but everything is based on angles regardless. We do not deal with specific senarios....but don't get me wrong we do train some drills with specific senarios but purely to aid learning behind hand and eye co-ordination etc in the early days of learning FMA and yes we do recover them as you should always go back to basics every so often. But later you train yourself to free flow with counter for counter, to ensure you are not waiting for specific techniques or movements.

This is also why to get a black belt in our style you have to do a black eagle bout (Dog brothers) no armour, to really test your skill....if you loose your stick that is tough, you carry on....

I hope you understand this, as it is easy to teach face to face but hard to explain on paper. When we teach seminars we often show the transitions from one weapon to another to help beginners to see the bigger picture within FMA from the start as generally this is stuff you are shown later on and makes so much sense once shown...so it is always good to show people early on that there is more to just wielding a stick.

Please feel free to ask me to recap something as I am not sure if it would make sense to someone that is not in my head .

Lots of love :love:

Lucy

 

there would be certain differences, for instance when I train knife, my entire body mechanics change compared to empty hand, with the knife I tend to close my body down, pull the elbows in and close my knees, that way I can get most of my soft-spots protected by a hard-spot, ie, my stomach is protected by my elbows, my inner thighs are closed to keep them from being an obvious target. In empty hand Im A LOT more open, often my hands being as far apart as possible, generating feints and decoy targets that most people go for...

My Footwork is a lot quicker, sharper empty hand, as they are free to do damage, in knife I'll keep them in guard until I remove the weapon from the equation .....

Hope this helps.


Great post Lucy, even I got the jist of that, and Im normally a very visual learner.

 

You have to remember that at some point the distinctions between what you are doing stop, and the weapons works blends seamlessly into the empty hand skills and it all becomes one art.

I know initially it can look as if the areas have little in common, that may be because of the way you are being taught, or what you have seen, I know when we do demos for example we tend to split it down into specific areas so that the spectators can follow whats happening, otherwise it looks like a blur of weapons a suddenly there is a man on his back weaponless and tied up like a pretzel (normally me :cry: ) , with training you learn to move between the areas in a fluid and controlled manner.

The idea that all the skills are transferable comes from the angles therory, most FMAers would agree that when they are taught a defence, they are taught that this is a #1 and this is what you do, not this is a downwards diagonal strike with a 26 inch long piece of wood and this is what you do.

The same holds true for attacks as well, ie If I do a #1 strike with a stick its going to start at my right shoulder, follow a downwards diagonal path and strike my opponent somewhere on his upper left side between temple and shoulder, if I do the same angle with a blade in normal grip its a downwards diagonal slash starting at my upper right side going diagonally down wards to hit my opponent on his upper left, normally around the soft tissue of the neck or throat, if I do it empty hand it could be any manner of fist / hand position but its going to start at my upper right side and strike his upper left in the head / neck area.

Nobody is trying to claim that you don't have to modify what you are doing slightly according to the weapon of the opponent, body position, range, amount of damage you are prepared to inflict on your opponent etc all come into it, but the basic philospopy of knowing the angle makes things go a lot quicker in terms of gaining new techniques

Hope this has shed a bit of light, ask away if you have any more specific questions

Neil

Edit - Look at that, all posting at the same time, clearly none of us have jobs to do, so i'm off for coffee, be back in an hour or so

 

But surely knowing how somone is going to attack with a knife, and their footwork would help you if fighting empty hand? Im no expert in any martial art, but isnt knowing your opponents possibilies a big part of it?

 

Theres never going to be just one way, or even just 10 ways that someone can attack with a knife..... sitting here I can visualise at least 20 different knife attacks, and those are only the ones where you see the knife before it sees you....

 

I know what you are trying to say....and when you are training with a regular partner this does tend to come into effect, and yes there are generally some patterns to movement, if you follow through with a strike, yes they are going to come back from one of about 4 general areas, but these areas are quite big and when training you can more or less follow these guidelines that you find tend to create in your head when training on a regular basis....

But....have you tried training with a complete novice beginner or a child for that matter....the rules of thumb go out the window completely.

You purely have to treat each as an angle when it comes and make no assumptions whatsoever. I mean what do you do if someone decides to just throw the knife at you....that one was not in the book, do I catch it between my teeth .

Only joking but i think you get the gist.

Lots of love :love:

Lucy

 

It all depends how long you've been training & how much you've trained. The ideal phases would be: Single sword/stick; double sword/stick; single knife; double knife (in some systems you have to go through single sword/stick & knife first); then empty hands.

I've had the same problem initially as I was attempting to "accurately" transfer what I've just begun to learn in single sword into empty hands. It didn't work that well. However, when the checking hand was introduced, the similarities were opened up.

Now, being that we're simply reading posts on the screen it would be a bit difficult to visualize where you're having trouble with. It could be the range. If it is, understand that the mechanics of a fight would change from a longer weapon to a shorter weapon. With longer weapons, you would be around the weapon's length away from the opponent. With a shorter weapon, the range changes dramatically. Then you have to take into consideration knife to empty hands where, it is easier to damage the opponent w/ a cut than it is w/ a strike of your fist (or palm or elbow).

Try this one out. Have a partner (for purposes of training & drilling) hit you w/ a stick on the elbow or hand or midsection w/ an angle 1 or forehand strike. Deflect or block this w/ your weapon with the tip pointing up (keep your weapon wielding hand close to the body - let the weapon do it's job of deflecting/blocking). It should look like you're trying to do a hook punch w/o bringing your elbow up. So now that you've got that one, both you & your partner get a knife-length stick or even knife trainers & have him stab you on the midsection. Use the same blocking motion you did above but this time present the edge to his attacking hand - in other words, cut his attacking hand/wrist. Makes sense? Now drop your weapon & have him stab you again on the midsection. Use the same motion you did w/ the above scenarios. Only this time, use your forearm to block the oncoming armed arm. I prefer my palm open & facing my body type of block. Ofcourse from here, you're not cutting him & so strikes & locks come into play. For that, better ask your instructor because it becomes more complex from here on.

Hope I made sense.

 

Nothing could be more true. (Edited my initial post. Was the other way around - hehe. My apologies)

 

My instructor told me something about the history...

Ancient Philippines is made up of tribes that are often at war with each other. So, as soon as a kid is able to hold a bolo, he's given one to defend the tribe and taught the basic necessary strikes he needs in a situation like the left and right diagonal strikes. If he survives an engagement, he is taught additonal strikes and skills, and so and so forth until they get to empty hand techniques. So, it was because of necessity and practicality that one was taught weapon techniques first because it was what they needed. And so, I guess the system of learning was developed in that way thereon.

Errr... I don't know if I am making sense... don't mind me...

 

here is where you have to have faith in your art of choice. fma empty hands movement follow from two distinct weapons: that of a baston and that of a knife. the footwork and the reaction do not change, just the adjustment to the ranges. obviously, empty hands can only work in medio and corto ranges.

imho, manny does not see it because his empty hands are primarily boxing and wing chun (though these are good arts to mix with fma). if you cannot put faith in the movement based on the weapons because it goes against everything you were taught, then there is no "faith", no confidence to use the body mechanics outside of the weapons.

give it a shot. forget what wing chun and boxing have taught you for a bit and try the empty hands of fma for real.

 

Thanks everyone, fantastic advice and input.

Some of the things suggested i will try again.
My dillema with weapon to empty hand lies greatly in most (not all) of the weapon angles i've been taught are on a downward or upward angles (X pattern) where in empty hands we strike primarily straight and curved.

I would use the No 1 angle for a slash or a stick strike but i would not use it as an empty hand strike even though the angles are similar.

My FMA training is primarily (Qualified Instructor) Floro Fighting System, which is a knife system only with little drills and a whole lot of sparring. Any drills are to only enhance the knife fight. No disarms - no retension - no flow drills - no slashing.

So when i train in knife, then take its applications to empty hand in sparring i'm always getting hit.

What i mean is that if i have a weapon in my hand i would fight differently then if i didn't and had to fight empty hands.
But again i will try some of your suggestion and thank you again.

 

Hi Mannie,

The trick is to see the similarities, not the differences, a stick is not a knife, and a knife is not a fist, but I know from experience if somebody attacks me with a right cross or hook i intercept and deal with it in an almost identical manner to a forehand downwards knife slash or strike with a stick, from my point of view it nearly always a rear hand block / interecept, some form of lead hand check, leading into whichever lock / disarm / takedown I feel in the mood for, my footwork may change a little, my hand positioning may change a little, and my range will certainly change, but overall its still the same technique

Neil

 

Mannie, I missed the opportunity to go to the last Sama Sama to see the Floro Fighting System. Of course, failing to meet Mr. Ray Floro. Hopefully, I will this year! But based on what I've been told & what I've seen on the Sama Sama video, as well as your system's site, it is a great system.

Being that you're a qualified instructor, then maybe it's your previous martial arts training that is making things harder? Again, just brainstorming. Fact of the matter is that you already know how to use a weapon & it is just a matter of intrepreting the applications to empty hand. I'm no expert yet in empty hands but I can assure you there is translation from sword to knife to hand.

 

Stick to Blade

http://www.alanorr.co.uk/htdocs/articles/markwIleyinterview.html

Excerpt from an interview with Mark Wiley:

Alan: Kalis Ilustrisimo is a sword art, and therefore the art has a different feel when used with a stick. Are there other Filipino arts that use this idea in the same way and if they do is the application along the same principle?

Mark: The movements of Kalis Ilustrisimo are precisely those of the sword. However, they can also be effectively applied with a stick, although the feeling of the motions are not "slapping" but "slicing" or "hacking". And this brings up a very interesting point. While many Filipino systems claim to be able to interchange stick, sword, staff, knife, etc with no change in technique, this is incorrect. For example, Modern Arnis and Serrada Eskrima are strictly stick-fighting arts. But under no circumstance are they sword arts. If you tried to wield a sword with the techniques of either of these two arts (for example), you might die. You see, the body mechanic of using a sword and stick are different; the methodology behind wielding them is different; the footwork used to employ the techniques of a stick are different than those of a sword. The whole paradigm of training is different. And while there are a systems that do train both stick and sword, although the gross movements look similar there are actually dozens of subtle changes in the movement and mechanics that differ the applications. Because of my experiences with various masters, I’ve come to see the truth behind the transference of stick and sword techniques and concepts.

It is this: You can level down but never level up. In other words, if you train a sword art as a sword art and then hold a stick and still, you can still use your techniques without error. However, if you train a stick art with its inherent impact blocking and grabbing and checking, and then utilize a sword, you cannot apply those same movements without great chance of serious injury. There are simply too many stick motions that do not apply to the sword. Each has its pros and cons, but they are not the same and should be viewed and respected as different entities of a complete art.

 

It is all the same and yet as you pointed out it is not.

I apologize if others have stated the same already.

If you understand the basic attributes of a weapon, then you understand the advantages and disadvantages of each.

Blade, - edge weapon and only needs contact and slight motion to cut.

Cane, - impact weapon and offers range . . ., .

Empty Hand, - Impact weapon alway with you, . . ., .

One can apply the same attacks and defense with from one to another. Do you look at empty hands approaching you, as thrusts from a blade or a cane?

Yet one has to understand the attributes of the weapon and then change your response accordingly to handle those attributes.

I hope this helps a little.

 

If you believe statistics.....In 80/90% of knife attacks, the 'defender' didn't see the knife coming ? So training with your opponent three foot away then delivering knife blows is unrealistic - no - ?

How is somebody going to attack with a knife any sensible knife attack will be as above - you won't see it coming - fact.

Also, me thinks if you look at the mentality of using a knife - truelly switch roles, it's going to be an upclose and personal thing, you are going to be full of adrenalin, and possibly rage and muderous hate, you are going to stick this guy 20-30 times before he hits the floor, and if he tries to stop you this is going to add more fuel to your fire.....you are going to bite, kick and stab in a murderous frenzy of blows trying to down your opponent, and if he falls, which he will, you will continue to stab and stab and stab and stomp and stomp and stomp!


Theres no time for 'knife gymnastics'.....

Heard of 'stress', funny thing this when you are confronted by a knife weiling assailant (non-knife weilding for that matter)- Fact dictates that any fine motor skills go right out of the window any complex strips, disarms, etc will not function - check out Bruce Siddle et al and studies of combat stress, fear etc look at what really happens in knife scenarios not theory - research, research, research.....................................

 

Hello Real1,

Your statistic is very true, many or most people did not see the knife when they were attacked, but let's look at the situations to get a better clue of what is going on. Many attacks often happen when the opponent appears to be punching at you, the blade is small and is difficult to see in a low light high stress environment. Since many people look at the situation and use an escalation of force principle it is already too late, because he has inflicted a potentialy serious wound. Another view of this would be a De-escalating use of force, or deal with any attacker "AS IF THEY WERE ARMED" and then de-escalate the amount of force required as needed.

Not to reiterate what I posted in the other thread, but there are many aspects to training a practitioner for the reality of an attack.

Gumagalang
Guro Steve L.

www.Bujinkandojo.net

 

Look, we're just going to have to accept that Real1 knows way more about knife fighting than your so called 'grandmaster' who's been stabbing people for the last 50 years