Basic principle's in FMA

Hi there, can anyone tell me if there are any basic princple that run through the FMA systems, that I should be aware of? What I mean by this, is like the water princple of many Chinese systems (the flow, etc), and "kata" in karate. These basic concepts/ideas that are the foundation of understanding eskrima systems.

 

There are lots. You mentioned the flow of CMA. I'd say that's a pretty big concept in FMA too.

Angles of attack. Like fencing, FMA studies angles of attack rather than counters to specific maneuvers. The theory is that whatever the weapon, it's going to follow one of the same angles. Take for example a jab from boxing, a sword thrust from fencing, or a side kick from karate. They're all linear attacks coming (for the sake of this example) to the stomach. So while they're all different weapons from different styles, the basic fact is the same. The line they occupy is the same. So there's a certain amount of the defense that can be the same as well. For example, side step off of that straight line and parry the attack.

Same deal for a swinging attack. It can be a haymaker punch, a round kick, or a baseball bat. The basic angle of attack is the same. So a certain amount of the response is the same as well. That's not to say that you'll do the same exact defense every time. It just means that there are certain principles you'll bring into play each time. Like you can always 1) step into an arcing attack to cut off its progress and snuff its momentum, 2) step away from an arcing attack so its momentum has dissipated, 3) step back as the arc swings by and then step in again behind it, etc.

The footwork, blocking, striking, etc. all flow from the idea of angles of attack.


Stuart

 

The pointy end goes in the other guy



oh wait I did that joke already

 

Still funny though

 

To add to Stuart's list: Brutal efficiency in application I think is one of the most basic principles. In weapons combat you can't afford a protracted battle.

And that in a good disarm: 'dis arm ends up over there and 'dat arm ends up across the room.

- Matt

 

Destructions, or defanging the snake. Basic principle, when a person attacks with a weapon you take the "fangs" or the weapon away by hitting, choping, slicing the weapon hand. Same thing is often applied empty hand, popping an attacking arms elbow with your shoulder, or perhaps vertically-diagonally-horizontally striking a attacking fist with your elbow.

A footwork principle off FMA is being off-line the angle of attack. Its ok being online in styles like karate that are utilizing blocks and counters to absorb force, but FMA always assumes there's weapons involved, and you don't want to absorb force when a knife is involved. Common footwork patterns are composed of X's and triangles to move off-line from an attack.

The "live hand" or checking hand is another common one. Whenever the stick or weapon isn't swinging or making contact the other arm is inserted on a limb, usually to jam, control, offbalance, parry or apply some follow up from there. Another way to say it, is that the live hand is inserted in between strike, or that something, either the hand or the weapon is always in communication with the opponents limbs. Later on the empty hand or live hand can be replaced with a daga for Espada y daga techniques, or another equal length weapon for Doble baston or Doble espada .

I'm just putting(and it looks like everyone else is too) principles that are the same pretty much across the board in FMA. When you get to specific systems or styles it changes up a bit.

 

Maybe this should become the FMA forum's first "sticky."

 

We have a sticky, Ok it's the general forum rules sticky, but it's still ours

If we're going to though, I think it's best we use this thread to do a couple of drafts 1st then when we're happy, it can be copied to a fresh new thread, turned into a sticky & no one ever need see the messy discussions that brought it to life.

that being the case other than what's already been said, what cha all want in it ?????

 

Oops. So we do.

And yeah, a couple of drafts is a good idea. I was just thinking that we didn't have a good overview of FMA on here yet.

As for what else we want on here, I'm sure there are more concepts to be had.

...

Yep. Got it.

FMAs start with the weapons, generally, and work their way down to empty hand. The reasons being that if you're genuinely fighting for your life, you want a weapon AND empty hand is considered an extension of weapons fighting. If you used a knife to cut an opponent's hand (as in Crucible's 'defanging the snake' post) you might use the knuckles of the empty hand to hit the radial nerve, numbing the arm in readiness to follow up with another counter.

Obviously the knife will do more damage. But the principle is the same between weapons.

...

Frankly, that's a pretty crap explanation. Someone else?


Stuart

 

Initially, the reason for learning weapons first would have been for the purpose of learning to defend yourself as quick as possible prior to going out to battle....in battle you would be facing swords immediately, so this is why they would first learn sword. Sticks became a replacement for swords when weapons were band....it was the closest substitute for a sword....but later with using a stick on a regular basis, sword techniques were used less with the stick and impact techniques began to be more natural....why pretend to use a sword with a stick, when you can use the stick as a stick.

You would then learn other battle techniques in addition to your swordsmanship skills.

Now, it is generally taught this way still....the main reason being that once you have learnt a weapon, your hand and eye co-ordination is far superior to someone that has purely trained empty hand. When you get used to a stick or sword coming at you at 100 miles per hour, remembering that the end of the stick swings round at 3 times the speed of the punio/butt end of the stick near the hand. The hand on it's own seems relatively slow.

And once you have learnt to minipulate your opponent with a weapon, whether it be just striking, locking, disarming or taking down and throwing with a weapon in your hand, the principle is exactly the same empty hand just different ranges are required. It is a case of understanding the weapon by using it first and then even if you are empty handed and your opponent is not, you understand the weapon enough to disarm and attack.

Angles are the most important to grasp when learning FMA because once you have these sussed it is just a matter of adaption for different weapons.

If you have only learnt an empty hand art, you are half way there if you already understand the angles, but most people will not be able to naturally adapt the same techniques to using a weapon and obtaining the same result without training, but an FMA expert can pretty much adapt everything from weapons to empty hand and vice versa, instantly.

Triangular footwork(male & female), is a very important part in learning the weapons correctly, in order to obtain the correct range but also to get to the outside edge of the opponent, which is considered the weakness of the opponent and with the centre point obviously being the strongest point we avoid it as it would only be a battle of strength...the strongest/biggest person
having the upper hand.

Flow is most certainly in my opinion an important part as it allows you to use your body mechanics with natural movement and this in turn gives you more powerfull hits (also prevents arm or wrist strain). Some styles will emphasise on multiple hitting aswell. You hit me once I will hit you 10 times, you hit me twice I will hit you 20 times and so on.

To achieve the flow and multiple hitting some styles emphasise on sayaws/forms and other solo drills, in order to really get your natural flow and ability to move, perfected. But also to teach you free flow when requiring an attack of multiple strikes.....which can be fun to learn aswell.

Most importantly when disarming, locking, and throwing you will find most require small circular movements to a point of tension in order to make them work effectively....you do not need strength, it is all technique. Once you grasp this concept it does not matter which specific technique you are trying to learn, they are all achieved with the same approach/concept. You do not need to remember hundreds of different locks, disarms and takedowns....no matter how they hit you or what angle, you can minpulate any part of their body into a tight circle and the effect will be the same. You just learn some clever stuff along the way making you look good in the process.

Lots of love :love:

Lucy

 

Yep. That was a better explanation.

 

Now this is very interesting.

I would have to say the basic principle of FMA would be adaptation.

However, as it is evident in the posts on this thread, it would be very hard to use one word to describe the basic principle of FMA. No different from basic principles of Bagua vs. Wing Chun - both of w/c are CMA. Lucy gave a very detailed & informative explanation of FMA. Maybe the practitioners of different styles here would care to give an insight to the principles they specifically follow. For instance, I know there are FMA styles w/c follow close quarters principle more than long range and then others, vice versa. We all train the different ranges but there are ranges w/c a certain style tend to be more concentrated on.

In Atienza Kali, one of the basic principles we follow is mass attack encounter.

 

I think it is very hard to pin down the FMA just to one concept or principal, to many it looks complicated, but it is easy, to many it seems hard but it is, once you understand it very simple, but hey that's FMA for you.

But, I think if you are going to try to pick one concept that describes the FMA more than all of the others it has to be the 'Go with the flow' concept, in other words, not to fight force with force.

Using the concept of 'Go with the flow' you are in effect constantly adapting around your opponents movement, attacks and defences. This is one thing that I feel if used correctly sets the FMA appart from the rest.

Best regards

Pat

 

You asking about stick-fighting, FMA-style?

First pretend you don't know much about fighting...

Then try to hit first, hit hard, and hit accurately at the opponent's vital area. Then hit and hit again with the intention to finish the fight as quickly as possible. All the other stuff (blocking, faking, trying to grab the weapon or weapon hand, etc) are secondary to delivering fast, hard, accurate and furious debilitating strikes without getting hit yourself. Your training program should revolve around how to do this in a real fight.

 

Thanks for the advice, all of you. I'll keep practising and keep a eye on what you say about the "flow".

 

fma principles i've been exposed to:

1) hit first. (followed by hit fast, hit hard and keep on hitting)
2) flow.
3) overkill.

 

And when you have done that, flow in to hitting them some more for some serious overkill

That's about it in a nutshell.

GM Mena said to me in 1992 when I asked him what style he done, his reply was simple I do the 'I Kill you style'.

Typical filipino approach, overkill or over celebrate, nothing in between You got to love it, everything to the max.

Best regards

Pat

 

Simultaneous

Hi,
Did anybody mention simultaneous blocks and attacks or blocks that attack/destroy, or just skipping blocking and attacking?
Rhythm, jamming, and ....sorry just did a 12 hour shift. Im toast!!!
Gordon
P.S.
Guro Omalley, I gots the package. Im just waiting for time to read it. hopefully the wife doesnt throw it out before I do. Salamat po.
gord

 

lol.

the guro speaketh the truth.

 

Just call me Pat, Pleeeeeese.

Glad you got the stuff, hope you enjoy it.

Best regards

Pat