Discussion on Ba Gua, Wing Chun and other Martial Arts

A-ha, another twist on the style-vs-style, except its now an internal/external or Bagua/WC kind of thang.

I echo most of Richdogs comments, (got it down pat my friend) but Ill add some others.

1) Apart from the two top WC practitioners in my association, most of the senior instructors are under 5 10 and two that I ahve trained under have a slight build - these are not people I would want to mess with because a) the experience and skill level but also b) they use strikes to the groin a lot more effectively. Not a nice combination in anyones book.

2) I personally train with a female instructor from my association, who is significantly smaller than me and has a tiny build. However when we touch hands her 'strength' (sinewy style stuff) feels like someone who is as tall and as strong as me, if not more so. Technique is the big gun in this case.

The only problem with women training in MA in general is a potential lack of aggression. And in fact thats not really restricted to women. You may do bagua/WC/Muay Thai/Boxing/karate/TKD/etc but its the style of training and reasons behind it that will make (or break) you. Its knowing those reasons why you train, and what you are prepared to put in that will make the difference in what you study.

Ad nauseum!!

 

My CLF instructor is a female, which is interesting. Its funny because every time I learn a technique with a hold in it (wrist lock or bear hug or whatever) she has to use the disclaimer "now imagine the attacker was actually your size." she's pretty small compared to me, and last time she bear hugged me i just bent over and lifted her off the ground. Apparantly thats not the kung fu way :/

 

According to this, would I or anyone my size then be unqualified to give someone taller and bigger advice on how to fight or how to handle fighting a small person -- when I personally know the specific difficulties I have in fighting someone their size?

Was Yip Man unqualified to show bigger students how to fight anyone besides bigger students as well?

 

OK, my teacher ( studied directly under Yip Man) said Yip Man gave different advice to different students according to their AGE, HEIGHT and WEIGHT .
There was no blanket “one size fits all” advice.
Also I read in some book, Hawkins Cheung ( his most senior student in the USA , but not in the world) was not a tall guy…mebbe 5’2” or something.
It seems Yip Man taught Hawkins things differently from the other students.
Infact if I recall, Yip Man taught Hawkins a rather “Internal manner” of the same WC techniques that were taught to the general class.
Mebbe you shd take lessons from Sifu Hawkins.
His site:


http://www.hawkinscheung.com/
8687 Venice Boulevard (just west of LaCienega)
Los Angeles, California 90034
(310) 838-5133



But to answer your question:
It make sense to only give WC advice to a taller, bigger, stronger person only if you have reached a sufficiently high level of skill and ONLY if you have actually beaten them in a WC to WC fight..... because you were able to triumph over a size disadvantage.

But the reverse sitiation is not true. Just because a bigger WC guy defeats a smaller you, doesn't mean his advice is always suitable for you , because he is fighting with an"unfair" advantage if you know what I mean.

But you can certainly share your concerns anytime with anyone your size and perhaps learn from such discussions.

Yip Man could beat all his students, bigger or smaller than he, so he was certainly qualified to dispense advice anytime to anyone.

Is that reasonable?

 

OK Strafio, how old did you say you are? 19? And you practise TKD as well as WC? Are you sure YOU know what you are talking about.
Dont you know that to WC people,TKD is child's play and rates only as a sports martial art?

Yip Man WC is only one of the many variations of WC. Yip Man WC made the headlines only because he brought it out of Communist China into Hong Kong and from there spread to the world and Bruce Lee helped made it a recognisable name. 90% of the WC practised in the world today is Yip Man WC. But the other lesser known styles of WC are practised mostly in Foshan, South China, Macau, Malaysia, Vietnam. Less famous than Yip Man WC, but probably no less potent .
But what is certain is that Yip Man simplified the original WC he was taught. In other words he removed forms and so his WC is indeed a cut down version.
For instance, Foshan WC has a sideways punch which is absent from Yip Man WC form.
Please remember my teacher was taught by Yip Man.


Quote: “ Wing chun is a southern chinese martial art that descended from the Red Junk Opera (Hung Suen Hei Ban). And, while there is no conclusive evidence of Wing Chun's earlier history ……….. Some of these lineages, like Sum Nung's, Pan Nam's, and Yip Man's that descend from Wong Wah Bo, have variations of the three forms which are normally associated with wing chun. Other lineages, like Gu Lao, have no forms at all. And others, like Cho Ga and Pao Fa Lien have a differing number of forms.“

Quote: “ But "original wing chun" does exist today”

http://www.wingchunkuen.com/why/articles/contemporary/niehoff_original.html


Rene Ritchie, Robert Chu have written a book detailing all the various styles / lineages of Wing Chun today:
http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/t...gy_img_2/102-0488949-6506507?v=glance&s=books



"Foshan" Wing Chun by Rene Ritchie
http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/t...f=sr_1_2/102-0488949-6506507?v=glance&s=books


Half way down the page:
http://www.wingchunkuen.com/why/columns/ritchie/pages04_foshan.html

Quote : “Said to descend from the Tse brothers, Gwok-Leung and Gwok-Cheung, this branch of Wing Chun, with its larger then average curriculum, is also said to integrate Siu Lam and perhaps Taijiquan methods. “

Eeeeeek ! "Larger than average" suggests Original WC had more stuff than Yip Man's
Also if WC was so superior, why did it incorporate Tai Chi ideas ?

 

RichDog

RichDog:If this is the case then how do martial arts teachers teach martial arts to disabled people or blind people? Does this mean they can not morally give advice on how they should fight and adapt to learning a martial art because they are not disabled themselves? Again, complete rubbish...

MAB: Because in teaching the blind or disabled, an instructor can simulate using blindfolds or sitting in a wheelchair or not move one arm/leg….and hence pre-test his own advice before dispensing it.
How does a big instructor simulate being small?
By fighting someone 6’5” ? How many instructors have actually tried that ?
Have you actually fought WC to WC with a guy 5" taller of equal skill and Won ? Do tell!


MAB:For instance I took the "size" advice of both my teachers, that old smaller chinese man, and also Sussanah Ho ( 5'8" ) but not that of the bigger teachers. ( I had 3 WC teachers).

RichDog:The you likely missed out on the practical experience of a good WC teacher simply because you thoguht because he was taller he had no advice to offer a smaller person on techniques and defence. Amazing.


MAB: You have a problem reading. Isaid I take advice from all teachers of all sizes. But with regards to size disadvantage techniques, I only accept advice from a smaller or lady teacher.



MAB:There is also no information as to how big/tall Miss Yim Wing Chun was or her opponent's size.

RichDog: Yim Wing has been repeatedly described as a small woman, as was Ng Mui, and I doubt the local bully (someone who obviously inspired fear in the locals) was a shrimp, otherwise he wouldn't have been a bully really would he?

MAB: You refer to this story as if it were gospel truth. There are so many versions of the Ng Mui/ Yim Wing Chun tale , in fact no one can be certain of it’s origin or accuracy.
All I settle for is “ There’s no information as to the size of Ng Mui and Wing Chun”
Also, if you have been to South China, you might notice that the size differential between a Chinese man and women is mebbe 1-2 inches on average.
But in western countries ( where Mysterae lives) the size differential is much greater, 3-8 inches.
Didn’t think of that did you?



RichDog: As the lady above said, you only studied WC for 1 year, still a relative newbie and hardly enough for any expert opinions, and as for Bagua... that will take you FAR longer to get a grasp of...

MAB: I spent 1 year learning and observing enough to make a well informed decision. If you read my earlier post carefully I did say that I also noticed in class during Chi Sao/ sparring “ no woman was able to dominate any man , no smaller weaker student was able to dominate a bigger stronger one” (except for Sifu Sussanah Ho , who had at least 15 years of experience). These guys and gals have been there MUCH longer than I.
I was able to learn from their experience/failures.

 

You took the words right out of my mouth Strafio!

And that is exactly what I am trying to say.
Other factors will come into play, like height ( reach) weight, size , muscle. So a bigger, stronger , younger person will win in that case yeah?

Mystrerae is 4’’11” ie 1.49 m female. If she fought against an equally skilled /trained WC fighter of same height / weight, she’d have a hard time winning.
Because pound for pound a man will still have more muscle % than a woman. His punches and kicks will penetrate deeper than Mysterae’s no matter how good her re-directs are.
Is that so hard to understand ?

I am fully aware that WC people love to perpetuate this belief that WC is the great equaliser between men and women.
I’m not so sure of that….go tell that to you sister , wife then put them in a real street situation and then come back and tell me how confident you were.

 

So are you saying you were able to overwhelm her highly trained technique with your size/height?

 

MAB please use the EDIT button man, consecutive posting creates work for the mods and is frowned on.

And i'm sorry but i'm not even going to bother writing a lengthy response to what you wrote above. You're talking out of you... you know... the fact that other very experienced WC'ers Wcrevdonner etc) are telling you this should hit home somehow...

 

Your response is so typical of an (arrogant) WingChunner....WC is the best , WC has No disadvantages, you didn't learn it well balh blah blah

If you are right prove it to me...I got you on a couple of points in arguement to which you have no answer. Argue with reasoning and logic, not just brush off rhetoric.

I know there are many experienced WC here...but until they have tried other styles like Bagua or Hsing Yi , what moral authority do they have to comment the sole superiorty of WC?

You know, I have met several WC instructors ( from Jim Fung SChool) who opted for Bagua and HsingYi ?
I guess they were all wrong too?

 

Mate do you realise how silly you sound making such inaccurate snap judgements? If you read any of my posts in other parts of the forum you would quickly gather that as much as I do like WC I MORE than accept and realise some of the weakness in WC, and as a result have begun training primarily in JKD concepts (Boxing, MT, Kali, BJJ) twice a week, and have lowered my WC to once a week... so before you say things that clearly have no basis in fact please stop and think for a moment, otherwise you tend to look a bit silly. Ok a LOT silly.

Where did I remotely say WC was superior to anything else in ANY of my posts, especially Bagua/H-sing Yi? Can you please find me a quote where I said that? I happen to think that the three main internal arts are among the strongest out there, and used to train in tai-Chi before I unfortunately had to give it up.

I was clearly commenting on MAB's posts about how WC instructors "cannot morally" teach short people and his references to strength in WC. I'd like to see the WC instructors views on this forum comment on that assumption. Were you even meaning to reply to me? Are you just a bit confused? Hell, who even mentioned the sole superiority of WC for a start?

All you did was troll your pent-up dislike of WC with no substance behind your words, plain and simple. You'd think a 35-year old practitioner of the internal arts would be able to use a little more common sense and restraint...

 

My profile is a bit out of date.
I've kind of halted with TKD because it doesn't suit me.
Yes, some Kung Fu practitioners dismiss TKD as merely sport or childsplay and they're just ignorant/arrogant/both. You don't have to make sweeping generalisations about WC people. EVERY MA has their political bigots.

Still the same 6 forms, just a slight variation in how they're practiced.
For instance, my first kwoon was headed by a sifu who first learnt under Ip Man lineage and then carried on to learn Foshan style.
There are a couple of differences, like they use a pheonix punch, and a few different ways they perform the moves but the form is still basically the same.

I also have DVD's of Pan Nam doing forms.
Same 6 forms.
Yes, some moves are performed differently, others performed in a different order, slight variations. Still the same basic art with a slight variation in how it is done.

 

If I didn't know any better, its not the case that the WC people are suffering from an superiority complex rather that the other users are suffering from an inferiority complex!

I haven't read one post I think that mentioned WC superiority - Id be careful about putting words into peoples mouths MAB,

Its quite funny, most of the WC people on the boards are quite chilled and accept critiscism fine, (theres so much on here! ) but we will leap to the defense when necessary.

And I echo Strafio's points about skill/size elements, and stress my own about aggression.

Ad nauseum twice!

 

It's perhaps a little over exadurated.
The fact is, the better you get at an art like Wing Chun, the less it becomes about strength/height/etc and the more it becomes about skill.
If two people are even in skill then yes, the person with more strength would have a slight advantage, but the more skilled they become, the less of an advantage this is.

Besides, that's only if the person you're fighting is as skillful as you.
Wing Chun grandmasters can easily beat people with multiple times their strength.

If you look at the example, it was clearly a technique not designed for someone her size, so she'd use other CLF techniques. And that's not even Wing Chun anyway!

 

EDIT: My bad, I should really learn to read posts before posting.

WC's prespective is crap then init.

 

Take a chill pill guys before I'm forced to slam someone in the sin bin for a spell.

 

Does it matter if I change chill to chilled and pill to beer?

 

Even better

As long as you don't throw the bottle at MAB :Angel:

 

Consider it done.

 

Cant promise anything, coming home after a long shift (and quiting smoking) only to find some muppet has been unconstructivly bashed my art. GRRR, all I'm going to say is, thank god for chilled beer.