Hi, I recently saw an advert locally for Taoist Tai Chi classes and I am thinking about going along to try them out. I really do not know very much about Tai Chi, so please excuse my ignorance, and apologies if this has been raised in previous threads, but I would welcome some insight into the differences between Taoist Tai Chi and other forms of Tai Chi. For example, I get the impression that Taoist Tai Chi is purely practised for health and fitness, and that there is no martial element? Is it the only style of Tai Chi that has this exclusive focus or are there others, and if so, in very simple terms, what are the key differences? I would welcome your advice.
Personally speaking if it has no martial element then you would be better off thinking of it as Qi Gong.
As I say, I know very little about Tai Chi (or Qi Gong for that matter)...if it helps, this is their website : http://www.taoist.org/english/
Taoist or Daoist I guess, (in my class they spell it with a "D"), in this tyle practitioners use visual imagery along with their moving meditation to help create warm feelings, cool feelings, or to relieve their stress. It really helps me focus more in Tai Chi and in general too.
It is based on yang style (108 form). You are correct in thinking it is health based as the founder(taoist taichi) modified the yang form to this end. Family styles eg. Yang, chen, wu etc are martial tai chi. Temple styles were practiced more for health and spirituality ( moving qi gong ). So you see this new age taichi yoga trend is not exactly a new thing. Commercialism is a new thing though and unfortuanately this has led some of the family styles to be used for more health based practices, due to demand, thus watering them down a little too much for some tastes. So these days the lines are a bit blurry, so the need for a bit of research is important to get what you want. Good luck Are you in the US? If you are try www.taichiamerica.com good info and school listings there
Many thanks for the info guys...Geo, the website is really informative, very helpful...I'm UK based, but I can now start checking out UK schools with a bit more of an idea of what I should be looking for.
Hi there Black Dwarf... taichifinder.co.uk isnt too bad a website to look at... was there a particular style you were looking at apart from Taoist... theres Chen, Yang, Sun, Wu among others... those are the main four..
Thanks for the web link Shadowdh....no particular style, as I say just wanted to find out more about what was being advertised locally....guess I should now just go along and try it out!
I hate to be negative about 'Taoist Tai Chi' but I have to be honest when I see the question asked. From what I have found so far, the organisation that teaches it is a little worrying... 1.) They discourage their members from practising any other type of Tai Chi 2.) They are highly critical of other styles and claim theirs is the only 'true' Tai Chi - always a bad idea ime 3.) The movements they practise are very stretchy and yogic, they look more physical and are certainly qigong rather than taijiquan 4.) They claim theirs is the only 'Taoist' Tai Chi which is ridiculous, particularly for a modern derivation. All Taiji styles are at least rooted in Taoism if not actually Taoist themselves now. 5.) The practitioners I have met have been rude and dismissive about other types of Tai Chi and behaved more like members of a religious cult than Taiji practitioners - not very friendly at all. A good sign in a Taijiquan class is if the members of a class are friendly and open. When I meet other practitioners they are usually open and friendly - the 'Taoist Tai Chi' ones so far have been wierd to say the least. To sum up.... Bargepole job imo N :Angel:
I agree with TaiJi Butterfly on this one. For some reason, I get the distinct impression of evangelical and fundamentalist type of vibes from this organisation. I don't think much of their Tai Chi though, so I pity them for going the wrong way, and yet being so sure and proud of it. Just my opinion, and they are welcome to challenge me to combat and knock my teeth off for speaking my opinion. Readers should judge for themselves. "A fool is indeed a fool if he does not even realise he is a fool" Regards, John Chow of Kalis Ilustrisimo and Lameco Eskrima Tao of Tai Chi Chuan Institute Melbourne, Australia
Only opened the front page of the website, and immediatley I knew they were numpties. Their yin yang motif is following a destructive cycle. Seems they don't know as much about Daoism as they would claim, I know pretty much **** all and I know this. It's just fairy puff stuff. **edit** Seems they don't know about the classics either: For example in Taoist Tai Chi limbs are extended to the fullest extent of their range of motion, providing a stretch for tendons and ligaments throughout the body which is felt to be beneficial for health. The classics explicitly warn against this.
I am not a martial artist. However, I do enjoy Taoist Tai Chi and have done for 2 years so far. If you want to call me wierd, a numpty, or a fool for choosing this style that's up to you. I have no interest in challenging anyone to combat...I just want people who read this thread in future to see Taoist Tai Chi from the point of view of both the do-er and do-nots - not just the do-nots - before making their decision. Whatever that decision ends up being. Taiji Butterfly, I am sorry that you have obviously had bad experiences with the Taoist Tai Chi Society members you have met. The vast majority of society members that I have met are open minded, compassionate and friendly ... but as with all groups of people, (including internet forums!) there are a variety of individual personalities and some are not so nice. I have never heard anyone in the Taoist Tai Chi Society claim this style is the only 'true' Tai Chi....nor have I heard it claimed that it is the only 'Taoist' Tai Chi. If you read about the history of the TTCS as given on the society web site you will see that it acknowledges that all Tai Chi forms have their origins in Taoism. I guess Master Moy chose to use taoist as the name for his style of tai chi because it was important to him to recognise Tai Chi's taoist roots. As for the evangelical/cult thing...I had to smile when I read that. I totally understand that thought and it can certainly seem that way. When I went along to a beginners class with my husband two years ago and they started going on about Master Moy, and joining a society, and the International Centre we both thought the exact same thing ... "Oh crap, what kind of cult have we wandered into here???". My husband decided not to continue with the it because of this but I decided, in spite of my reservations, to join the society as I was really enjoying learning it and had met some nice people in class. I am pleased that I did. I came to realise that the society is just an organisation. Like any of the clubs that you guys go to. Only bigger than most. Within the society, some people just go to one TTC class a week thinking of it as an exercise class (I'd say this is probably the majority of society members), others choose to get more involved, practice diligently and learn the other internal arts that Master Moy taught - Push Hands, Sabre, Sword, Lok Hup Ba Fa etc - and others get still more involved so that the Taoist aspects become integrated into their lives. So you can be as involved, or not, in the society as you want. There is no commercial aspect to TTC as Geo's post implies. Yes, it focuses purely on the health aspects, not because it is popular or trendy or because thats what hippy/new age/airy-fairy people want, but because that is the aspect that Master Moy was interested in. He had seen the benefits to his own health and wanted to pass them on. All the instructors and almost everyone involved in the running of the society are volunteers. At the very least, what this means is that instructors are motivated by their enthusiasm and belief in the art...not because they want to make money (unlike some unscrupulous tai chi "teachers" of other forms...you know the kind I'm talking about). I once asked the question about the yin yang being the "wrong way round" as I saw it on the TTCS logo - the destructive cycle as Brido put it. I was told that Master Moy chose it to be that way on purpose because it also symbolised returning to the origin (in terms of both spiritual and physical health) - one of the fundemental ideas of Taoism. I guess its all about interpretation. I am interested in other forms of Tai Chi (taiji, taijiquan ... however you want it) which is why I was visiting this forum in the first place. I haven't tried any (yet!) but I enjoy listening to those who have....the main difference I have picked up from talking to others, apart from the obvious lack of any martial application, is the teaching structure and style. I think it is probably more accessible to your "average" westerner interested in the health benefits of Tai Chi rather than the martial arts. TTC practitioners start by joining a beginners class where they are taught the basic "lines & angles" as a group. For the 108 moves this can take between 3 and 6 months (depending on the instructor and the class). They then progress to a continuing class where, having learned the basics of the set, they can begin to work more deeply. Each move, based on the Yang style, can clearly be described in terms of western physiology, anatomy & biomechanics and usually is. But the traditional background is there and if you are interested in those aspects you can discuss it with your continuing instructor. As for the form itself, in the beginning stages it looks and is very external because of the way it is taught. But as you progress it definitely becomes more internal, and if you watch a really experienced TTC practitioner you'll see how ... quiet ... soft ...their movements are. Mine are just now starting to quiet down a little and become more internal as my understanding of the form increases. I know many members in the TTCS who have come from a martial arts background, some still doing them. I also know several who currently also practice other forms of Tai Chi - and enjoy both very much for different reasons. Hopefully most of you have been open-minded enough to read this as it was intended...to inform, not to challenge. I realise this is a martial arts forum and by its very nature most people that come here will not be at all interested in Taoist Tai Chi because, put simply, it isn't a martial art. But there again, it doesn't make any claims to be either.
I practice Chen style taiji and I just want to ask is the 108 movments lesson taken everyday by a student as I am almost finished the 75 movements of the Lao Jia and its taken me about 9 months...
Hi Shadow, No, it's not taken every day during the beginners class (not usually, anyway!). It's important to stress that in TTC at the beginners stage it is simply about lines and angles and becoming familiar with the 108 moves. It's like a walkthrough almost. Most people when they progress to continuing class cannot remember the full sequence of 108 moves (unless they do practice every day outside of class, most at this stage don't), and the ones they can remember they probably do not have a very good understanding of. However, when they leave the beginners class most people are familiar enough to practice a full 108 set in the continuing class with members who have been practicing longer and who have a deeper understanding. Practicing in a group is powerful - kind of difficult to describe how, but it is - and it also gives those who may be struggling to remember the set on their own the chance to do all the moves for maximum health benefits and to become more familiar. The whole group will work together on the same general area during class - whether that is timing, relaxation, a particular aspect of a particular move etc - though obviously everyone is at a different stage of their tai chi development and they all understand different aspects of the instruction given. The continuing instructor will also give individual corrections to form in order help people progress, and tailor the corrections to any specific health problems they may have to try and give maximum benefits. (It took me 9 months to complete my first full set on my own and that was using the list of move names to prompt me....it took me several more months before I was comfortable with practicing the full set alone and could then really start to work more deeply into my body and on understanding the moves because I no longer had to think about the sequence. I know some people who have been doing TTC for four or five years and still can't do a full set alone but they tend to be those who see it as a weekly exercise class.) The only measure of quality in TTC is the benefit it has to someones health. Health benefits increase as the form improves through instruction and practice. But as I said, the main difference that I have noticed is the TTC teaching style.... Guess that was the long winded answer.
That I can respect. I have no problems with people practising what they want from Tai Chi. I come from a system which primarily promotes it as a fighting system, and my downfall is I sometimes start swinging punches before I hear the other guy out. This is mainly because I come across many a people who get angry with me since I use thier beloved Tai Chi to fight with, but that is no excuse. I apologise. I hope you continue to gain much enjoyment out of your Tai Chi.
Stillwalking, thank you for a very informative post, it gave me a great insight into what Tai Chi is all about and how much you can get from it.
Stillwalking Interesting post. Having checked out the TTC home site I notice that its content is very different from when I first looked at it about a year ago i.e. the negative references to other styles have been removed. I still maintain that calling your style 'Taoist Tai Chi' does imply others are not - and, once again ALL Tai Chi styles were originally Taoist. Also the full extension of limbs is yoga, not Tai Chi. I think Yogic Tai Chi would have been a much more appropriate title. I am glad you are enjoying your Tai Chi, I do hope one day you'll get to try a more traditional style and find out what we're all ranting about lol Peace N :Angel:
I think that Stillwalking has given a convincing account of Taoist Tai Chi and it is all about what you want from Tai Chi. I also agree that it perhaps should not be called Tai Chi as such as it has no direct lineage to the traditional styles-This may be viewed by some as being purist. You will get a degree of health benefits from Taoist Tai Chi but it is mostly chi kung oriented apart from the fact that you are not directing breath to any part of the body. It may be more suitably called Nei Kung albeit a very Yin type of Nei Kung. Weapon and pushing hand practice tends to be looked upon as an advanced practice and it is used to only be offered to 'senior students'. This may have changed in the last few years but I doubt it. I practiced the style for a couple of years for a very specific reason and now having gone back to a traditional style (practised for the passed 9 years) i feel that i have gained more from the traditional style as one can practise any traditional style purely for health if they so wish. I hasten to add that i enjoy the more martial side of the art yet if we practise only the Yang side we have less than half the art and if we practise only the Yin side we are not really practising Tai Chi Chuan. It is sad that Master Moy is no longer with us as I'm sure that he had a great depth of knowledge. I would reiterate that one must look at what they really want from Tai Chi and it may mean trying one style and moving on at some point if it is not giving them the return on their investment. This is not to say that one should jump around from one art to the other and the Chinese say that this is like having a thousand knives but none of them are sharp! Mark.
