IMA with EMA + Weight training?

I am currently doing an external style, and some weight training in free times... I decided to try out Tai Chi, which has some meditation and Chi Kung... but I want to know, if things will interfere with each other? If I develop good chi/qing in Tai Chi class, will it get screwed when I do my weight training? Will I be able to learn Tai Chi properly after I have been pounding people around(or get pound) in my EMA class with hard and fast kick and punch???

 

Forget about it. It doesn't make sense being hard and flowing like water (IMA main principle) at the same time. I suggest you to read DD/TT Ching to understand Daoist principles in depth.

Weight training is similar to Qigong/Chi Gung, it's god for your overall wellbeing and stimulates testosterone production. However it is close to fire qigong therefore you have to be careful when you combine it with IMA practice. It should be done infrequently though, like only once a week (maximum) and without falling into the high-intensity domain.

Just trial and error. See how it goes. Back off if you experience too much tension.

All the best.

 

But I don't need to use both external and internal skills in a fight, just because I know them, do I? I am interested in learning the thing, and the training, and the whole chi kung thing, not necessarily try to "combine" them. I will be doing both things at different times during some days though, maybe weight training in the morning, IMA in the afternoon then EMA at night time...

But yea I guess I give it a go and see... I was wondering if bad things will happen, but once again I will not try to "combine" anything, just learning more things.

So... what is fire qigong????

Thanks.

 

Why would it effect it?

Tai Chi is a martial art. In martial arts you need to hit people. To hit people you need power. The more functional muscle you have the more power your body can generate. Someone with good technique and some muscle will hit harder than someone with good technique and no muscle.

I don't understand why people think that muscle mass equates to being bad at internal styles.

Tai Chi is about the whole Yin/Yang thing. It's a balance. To me these people are all yin. Jing is educated force. We know to apply force you need technique and muscle. Locking horns and going head to head is wrong certainly, but that isn't Jing. You use Yin to counter your opponents Yang, then you attack his Yin with your Yang.

There is good sence in training muscle. Not talking body building, but building functional muscle and power.

 

Ok I'll be trying out Tai Chi tomorrow night, but I may be end up doing Xing Yi because of cost and location.

The problem is that I am not too sure about Chi/qi, that's why I ask if anyone knows anything.

Well the goals in my weight training is mainly fat loss and strength, not much body building, although I wouldn't mind if the muscle size increase a little.

 

Chi is usually spoken about by people when they want to appear mystical and special, or try to part people with their money. There is nothing about Chi that can't be explained by modern medical science.

Tai Chi promotes good posture, deep breathing, gentle exercise of all the muscles and slow repetitive movements gently massage your internal organs. All this improves the circulation in your body. It isn’t Qi that is making you feel good, it is the above.

http://www.amazon.co.uk/exec/obidos/ASIN/0912111631/ref=ase_practicaltaic-21/202-6177435-4223002

Haven’t read it yet but I heard it is a good one. Plan to get it next month when I get paid.

 

The general way Internal Arts generate and absorb power is as follows. To absorb and/or strike the following methods are usually applied. A practitioner either uses the force exerted on them and/or gravity to sink/drop the force in to the ground, and dissipate it. At the same time the sinking/dropping process acts on the musculature and tendons by means similar to loading a spring. I.e. As the force connects to the body, the practitioner redirects it in to the ground by sinking/dropping ones body in to the ground. The sinking/dropping action is learnt by correct ‘chi kung’ and/or form practice. This allows one to let the force pass through the relaxed musculature in a downward manner, as this process takes place, the tendons in the legs, waist, spine and arms, are wound up/coiled like a spring, allowing one to release the energy that has just been loaded in to the tendons. The release can be done sequentially to produce more power, though this requires greater training, i.e. one learns to connect all the individual movements in a wave like manner, hence, stalking the energy and focusing it on to a single point, or as required. In the above manner every strike or block, is already gearing the body up for the next attack. Hence yin and yang interact harmoniously, a retreat is an attack and vice versa, though there are other factors to be considered such as correct footwork and double weighting. Each style has its own methods of footwork which is geared to its specific energetic profile, i.e. Xing Yi – primarily forward moving energy, Tai Chi – primarily moves energy back and forth, Ba Gua – dynamic, unpredictable energy.

If one trains too much externally, it is possible one may loose, or never gain the ability to move as described above, this is for several reasons. One may habitually use brute strength, the muscles may never be soft enough to allow one to condition and learn to utilize the tendons, and that’s about all I can think off at the moment. But saying that, some people can and do combine external and internal training, personally I would not recommend it, however it is possible, though necessary guidance and know how is required, otherwise one will be wasting their time. In other words unless your teacher specifically knows how to do it , then don’t do it.


EDIT: For some info on how tendons/ligaments store energy one may wish to do some research in to how Kangaroos move around, they are an extreme example of how to absorb and release force using the tendons/ligaments.

 

inthespirit, I may or may not get what you are saying, but I try... it is good that you are talking about IMA in genernal though that I may not be only doing Tai Chi but also Xing Yi.

So you learn to "sink" to the ground??? I am wondering if that would mean that you would be rooted to the ground so much, that you won't be moving around as fast???? In my EMA class, we are suppose to bend our knees and try to be light on the feet, while having resistance against your opponent.

I am not too sure about the tendon thing, but in my EMA class, my instructor told me to be relax all the way, then tense the muscle just before it hits something, e.g. the fist is always relaxed untill just before it hits to broad. Power of the hip, triceps are also twisted to generate more power. I think that's quite similar to the tendon thing...

 

Good question

A lot of the weird stepping in IMA is to train deceptive stepping and the distinction of weighted/non-weighted feet. That means your opponent doesn't know where your "centre" is, and you've got the potential to move in any direction. Remember IMA are responsive arts - they're intended for quick defence and counter-attacking so the stance is built around reactive movement.

While you may move a little more quickly using a light, bouncing EMA stance, you're advertising your centre of gravity and you're a lot more off-balance. You also build up momentum which limits your potential to change direction.

Also, the most important thing is power generation. While in EMA you generate power with the waist/shoulders/arm/hips, etc, in a punch, in IMA you also generate power through the ground (kind of like when you push start a car. You use the ground to push, not just your muscle strength).

 

Its a bit difficult to explain, but peaty much what NZRic. You basically learn to focus force/pressure/gravity in to the ground when applied to you, and from the ground up, when you want to apply it to something or someone, this involves a combination of relaxation, tendon elasticity, intention, timing, and various other factors. But, the way the training is designed is to make these abilities reflexive, so you don’t have to think how to do it, like riding a bicycle. Its basically a different way of using your body, more closely related to how some animals move around, internally. As with regards to sinking a good example of this is cats. They are very good at sinking, you can feel this when you pick them up, they always flow down, due to their elasticity and relaxation, its like picking up a water, it always flows down. Due to this their also very resilient, because of their water like state, any shock waves traveling through their body, dissipate easily as opposed to something tense. Stepping methods, also share some similarities with the way a cat moves, but its best to try it out for yourself, I’m sure if you lean from a competent teacher these things will become apparent sooner or later.

 

Go for it. Make sure you have good instructors, though. A lot of silly people out there. You can incorporate taiji practices into your 'external' art, and your 'external' art can inform much of your taiji.

The thing about weightlifting to watch out for is simply bad form. Any decent weightlifting instructor will tell you this much, but bad form, increasing weight too quickly, or starting too heavily will mess up your structure and can produce bad habits, increase tension in your body, produce crappy posture and body structure, and be injurious to yourself. This is especially bad if you want to get anywhere in taiji. I find that after doing taiji, with its emphasis on structural integrity and relaxation, I weightlift very differently, trying to maintain nei gong principles while lifting (perfectly doable) and caring a lot less as to how much I can lift, as long as I do it right. I don't recommend against weightlifting, but I would recommend you get an internal sense of relaxation and structure before you start weightlifting in earnest.

One last caveat: weightlifters often work only major muscle groups. Though useful, a lot of martial arts, internal and external, rely heavily upon minor structural and support muscles. Just because someone can bench a lot doesn't mean that person can resist all angles of attack, redirections, locks, or produce power in all directions. Weightlifting is a supplement, not an end in and of itself. This should be kept in mind.

 

Oh ok, thanks, it sounds like a whole new MA concept, I'll get my hands on it!

I visited the Tai Chi place I found, but I don't think I was welcomed... everyone was about 50yrs+, and the intructor person notice there is a new face (not that I know who it may be)... so no I just went back... I hope that it will be better atmosphere when I try Xing Yi...

I am not really thinking of incorporate IMA with EMA, I just want to learn it... I am just thinking that it is like I learnt how to repair a car, I might as well learn how to repair a a plane; some concepts may be the same and some aren't.

As for weight training, it is not quite the same as weight lifting is it??? Well all I am getting from it is the extra strength + stamia and less fat... and yea I train for the whole body. I still maintain my EMA, and weight training helped a little in my EMA sparring and stuff.

Anyway thanks for the info, I am really interest and excited about trying Xing Yi now!

 

If you do this and do it for a while, the above quote will make you laugh. Tai Chi is not a "doing" it is more of an "undoing". The last thing you will want to do is "get your hands on it" because it is mostly about letting go.

With a good teacher you won't have a choice. You won't want one either.

Do them all, just do them all well. Good luck.

Snob

 

New Guy.. what country are you in? Maybe, fellow MAP'ers could offer some insight.

 

MartialArtsSnob, as I said it my previous post, I am not going to try Tai Chi, can't find a decent group... I don't mind about "undoing", I never know what I can do/undo if I never attemp...

inthespirit, I live in Canberra Australia... it would be nice to have local MAP'ers but most I've seen so far are living in Sydney and I rarely goto Sydney...

 

Ya, you won't be doing Tai Chi Chuan but if you do any IMA including Hsing-I you will be practicing the very same concepts (Tai Chi). Why the frown? Don't get me wrong, I'm not trying to insult you. It is simply that these arts are very different in approch than what you have done up till now. Like I said good luck!

Snob

 

I do know that it is a different concept to what I am doing now, in fact that's the reason why I am interested in it, I want to try something new, and do things I couldn't do with EMA/weight training alone.

Thanks.

 

NG,

Go to the gym but please don't over do it. Train once/twice a week max. without going overboard. I wouldn't suggest you to start Qigong training without knowing what you're doing. Look for someone knowledgeable.

Get your self a copy of these books:

1. The Roots of Chinese Qigong - Dr. Yang, Jwing-Ming

2. A Complete Guide to Chi-Gung - Daniel Reid

Seriously, don't dare to practise Qigong on your own because you'll most likely to get hurt, unless you live in a non-urban environment and have mastered self-knowledge skills.


All the best in your quest.

 

Ok well, can you give me any reason that weight-training more than
twice a week is consider as "overboard"? What is overboard? And how does that affect me, and my IMA training?

Thanks for your recommendation, but those are in English are they? I can read Trad. Chinese pretty well so if you know any good one that is written in Chinese, that would be the best!

Oh, I found a club so I don't really need to try learn Qigong on my own, it is too confusing to read it from a book when you don't know something about it already!

 

The explanation given by Donjitsu2 abbreviates and saves me of excessive writing. I hope this link finally clarifies the problem of mixing weightlifting and martial arts (not only internal):

http://emptyforce.com/openBB/read.php?TID=24