Outlaws of the Marsh - Want to discuss it?

[BillyJohnston]

Hey! There is this chinese classic called "Outlaws of the Marsh". It is written by Shi Nai'an nad Lue Guanzhong. The edition I have is translated by Sydney Shapiro and published in 1986.

The book gives some interesting insights into old chinese traditions and culture. It describes the activites of various kung fu men and their exploits. I found it entertaining. I also found it mystifying.

Many of the situations and events seemed odd to me. I could not understand the actions of some of the people because of the cultural differences. They would experience a problem that seems easy to solve, yet it would be an insurmountable problem.

I think it would be fun to see how people interpret the situations in the book. I would like to see if others reached the same conclusions about what is going on that I did.

I will start.

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In one section of the book, it disucsses how a man has come to live with a family. The man is a cousin or some sort of relation. The man can only be described as shiftless. His actions can be described as mooching off of the host family.

The entire situation deals with the quandary of the family and what to do about the cousin. They do not want him there and they would like to get rid of him. In my country, the reaction would be for the family to throw the cousins belongings out on the lawn and tell him to get out.

My interpretation of the situation was that in chinese culture, they can never throw out a family member. No matter how bad they are or how much trouble they are. They are family and the MUST be cared for.

You know? I kind of liked that idea when I reached it. The idea that the people are so loyal to family. In the west, the family has disintegrated or the culture never emphasized it so much. It is traditional for children to be thrown out of the house on their 18th birthday. It is traditional to let relations suffer rather than deal with the inconvenience of housing or helping them. It is traditional to lie to family members so that you are happy instead of making the family members happy.

Since I like the idea so much, I wonder if maybe I fooled myself a little in how I interpreted what is going on. If you have read Outlaws of the Marsh and remember this section of the book, I would be interested in your insight into what is happening.

[TheMightyMcClaw]

First of all, I would like to thank you for starting this thread. Outlaws of the Marsh is my favorite book. I read it when I was in China, studying Wushu. As Outlaws of the Marsh is all about warrior culture, I thought it was particularly fitting for my stay there, and I recomend it to anyone who studies Chinese martial arts (or anyone, for that matter).

I'm no expert on Chinese culture, but it seems that Outlaws of the Marsh places huge emphasis on Confucian values. Among these are loyalty and filial piety. You'll notice that Song Jiang always stresses his utmost loyalty to the emperor - it's the corrupt officials who surround the emperor that are Song Jiang's enemies. Even though he is an outlaw, he still considers himself a loyal subject.

Likewise, in the incident you described, this family cannot simply turn there back on this shiftless relative. Confucianism places a great deal of importance on the family. From my understanding of Confucianism, I would say that your interpretation is solid.

I find it highly interesting that Outlaws of the Marsh creates these Confucian outlaws.... from what I understand, warriors were outcasts of Confucian society... and I imagine that among warriors, outlaws would be the most rejected. There's an article here you might want to check out... it's primarily about wuxia fiction, and talks quite a bit about Chinese warrior culture.

To raise another point of interest.... what did you think of the book's criticisms of Buddhists in China? The two most prominent "buddhists" were Sagacious Lu and Wu Song, who both rivalled Li Kui in their savagery and crudeness. I believe that there was a scene towards the end where Sagacious Lu rides out and does ironic battle with an enemy warrior who is also impersonating a buddhist monk. These sorts of "meat-eating priests" seem as prevalent figures... and many of the minor monks seem weak and incapable of stopping evil (such as the in the prologue).
I'm currently reading Journey to the West, and it seems to be laden with similar criticisms of Taoists... yet at the same time, as far as I can tell, the book is laden with Taoist references and poetry. Interesting stuff, eh?

Sorry if I rant a bit.... it's very rare that I get to discuss Chinese literature. And I do love it so. ^_^