Using Breakfalls in the Street

[Punchy]

I have started doing some Judo and so have been intrroduced to breakfalls. Having little experience with Judo or other grappling arts (I do boxing) I wanted some advice from experienced grapplers.

Do the breakfalls used in Judo etc work in the street? Maybe I am just not experienced but I do not like the idea of slapping the concrete to break my fall as I expect I would damage the elbow or worse.

Wrestlers seem to try to land on the soles of their feet - is this better for street self defence?

What do the self defence systems (eg Krav Maga) do for break falls?

This is a great forum!! Where else could you canvas opinion on such a topic?

[Mushroom]

Actually breakfalls are used by stuntmen on concrete and such. Basically as long as your hands land first and you tuck in your chin (if your landing backwards) then your body reactes and prepares for the hit.
Chances of you being thrown down hard is slim, you'll most likely be pushed down or slip in a realistic situation, and thats not too bad, it whether you can get back up is another thing.

[Colin Linz]

In Shorinji Kempo we regularly do breakfalls on hard surfaces like cement and wood, in fact I learned them on a wooden floor; however our breakfalls are different to the normal falls I have seen and have been taught in other styles. During Embu demonstrations or just training we use whatever surface is available. During periods of training where we may be thrown constantly for extended periods we may use mats.

[Punchy]

Originally Posted by Colin Linz

In Shorinji Kempo we regularly do breakfalls on hard surfaces like cement and wood, in fact I learned them on a wooden floor; however our breakfalls are different to the normal falls I have seen and have been taught in other styles. During Embu demonstrations or just training we use whatever surface is available. During periods of training where we may be thrown constantly for extended periods we may use mats.

Thanks for that. Would you briefly describe how they are different?

[Colin Linz]

Originally Posted by Punchy

Thanks for that. Would you briefly describe how they are different?

We don't use the slap of the arm, but use the ball of the foot to land on. The leg that lands first should be bent, and the hips should be high. This bridging acts like a spring in absorbing the shock. The best way to understand this is to try and find some video clips and watch the technique, there are some on Swedish Federations site http://www.shorinji-kempo.org/ At other times, for example some types of seionage you won't breafall as such, but rather cartwheel over and land on your feet.

[ttamgirl]

I am in tae Kwan do, and I have seen one guy at my dojo, he could do brake falls on wood no problem.

[Ghost Frog]

Most styles of ju jitsu do breakfalls using the feet for when your hands are trapped, as well as standard ones using the arms to break the fall. It all depends on the angle that you're landing at. Most people inadvertently use breakfalls on concrete in winter when running along an icy pavement trying to catch a bus. If you've drilled them regularly, you tend to do it naturally.

However, the key thing in breaking fall is to relax. This is why you can fall down a flight of stairs when you are drunk and not hurt yourself.

[Taliar]

Breakfalls should be landed with the 'meaty part' of the arm / hand (not the elbow) This means that any damage to you as a result of falling over will be bruises and not breaks or sprains. It is preferable to land and hurt your arm rather than your back or head.

If you are falling or being thrown on a hard surface the chances are that you are going to suffer some damage, however a break fall is there to try and minimise this as much as possible, if you don't want to use them you can either not go down or land badly.

[Colin Linz]

Originally Posted by Taliar

Breakfalls should be landed with the 'meaty part' of the arm / hand (not the elbow) This means that any damage to you as a result of falling over will be bruises and not breaks or sprains. It is preferable to land and hurt your arm rather than your back or head.

If you are falling or being thrown on a hard surface the chances are that you are going to suffer some damage, however a break fall is there to try and minimise this as much as possible, if you don't want to use them you can either not go down or land badly.

I have been thrown on hard surfaces for the last sixteen years; I would have no idea how many times. I have never hurt myself on a hard surface, despite not using the arm. I have hurt myself on mats though. Last year a visiting Japanese instructor was throwing me around. I was trying to watch how he managed to do it, I tried to interrupt the technique to get a better view of his body position and bam I was on the floor and my ankle had rolled in the soft mat and torn some tendons.

[Taliar]

When done correctly arm breakfalls will stop you harming yourself. I was trying to point out to the original poster that the point of a breakfall is to limit damage to yourself and that it is better to use one than not.

Out of interest how would you use your feet to control a throw/fall that put you on your side.

[Colin Linz]

I gave a quick description in my earlier post; there is also a link that has some video footage. It is a little difficult to adequately explain. I should add that I would use arm type breakfalls in some conditions, like when your legs are swept out and you fall backwards. But given the chance I prefer to use my feet, especially on hard surfaces. The bulk of our throws come from the wrist so this may influence the difference, although our throws can be similar to Aikido and they don’t breakfall like us.

[bukweetz]

Hi punchy,

I share your concerns about judo style breakfalls in the street.
Slapping down with the hand always seemed silly to me, think about
the potential of hitting broken glass, or slightly mis-judging your position
and hitting the edge of a curb with your forearm. Judo is made for matted areas, suerly this is the cas, and in reality we should be careful of this.

Given that this is the self defence section of this forum are we talking
about street situations or pre-arranged, consenting breakfalls. I am
sure that many of us can do very nice falls on whatever surface when
we can dictate when we fall / roll out etc. I know i have done this many times.

However, in reality, keep your chin tucked into your chest and try to land slightly on your side and with the bulky under arm area landing first.

cheers,

iain

[Ghost Frog]

I disagree to be honest. I tripped over a kerbstone when out running a few months back and went flying. I did a front breakfall on the pavement without thinking and didn't even skin my hands.

There isn't much pre-arranged or consenting about the breakfalls people have to do from judo randori, it tends to be a case of limiting the damage. That's why it produces so many injuries, even on matted surfaces.

[madfrank]

Hi

The problem with most MA's in the street is that in a dojo you have lots of space generally in the street you do not.

Break falls require space which is often Not available in a street fight.

Also as mentioned above instead of a mat you could have broken glass, dog mess, steps etc to land on.


And how often do you think you will get throwed in a street fight?

It is not a common street attack.

MF

[Ghost Frog]

Originally Posted by madfrank

Break falls require space which is often Not available in a street fight.

Why do you need loads of space? You don't roll out of everything. If you're going down, there is space for your body on the ground, and that's all you need unless you're doing some fancy technique. If there's someone in the way, then you land on them, so that's good.

Of course complete beginners learn with lots of space and on flat surfaces, it would be stupid to do otherwise as they're bound to hurt themselves or someone else. That doesn't mean that it's not going to work elsewhere once they've learnt it well.

Also as mentioned above instead of a mat you could have broken glass, dog mess, steps etc to land on.

I'd rather land well in dog mess, on broken glass or on steps with a semi-decent breakfall than land badly on my head. The last time I landed on concrete with my head, I didn't get up and walk away. I'm sure I could walk away with some cuts and covered in dog poo. And why would steps cause a particular problem anyway?

I think we've all got different ideas of what a breakfall involves here. A breakfall is any way of minimising injury to yourself as you hit the ground; it doesn't have to be a beautifully artistic aikido roll. At a minimum, it means relaxing so that your body is soft as you hit the ground and you don't hurt yourself, and keeping your head tucked in. Wrestlers learn this by being dropped loads, other people learn it by doing gentler drills. Hopefully the end result is the same.

And how often do you think you will get throwed in a street fight?

Not often, but how often will I get shoved over, knocked down or pulled to the ground? Quite a lot I think. People get badly hurt in street fights when they get knocked over and land badly, hitting their head, or breaking their wrist/ elbow/ collar bone. If you aren't used to falling, you will almost always land badly.