Palm Heel or Fist? A New Insight

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Thanks for Mark for letting me post this. Check him out at his site.​

What do you think guys? IMO, it's lack of training in adrenal stress mode that makes people revert to fists. If you are able to train under adrenal stress and stay in control, then you can train palm heels. Then these will be available in a fight.​

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Yes, i can see your point, but just because it is our evolutionary predisposition to do something doesnt mean it wont work.

We train ourselves in irregular movements, uncomfortable positions as martial artists to overcome our normal reflexes. We build muscle memory to store this new knowledge. The palm strike is very effective in combat and we train ourselves to use it in combat, the same with elbow strikes and knee strikes. That is the whole point of Martial Arts in a combat sense. We are going against our raw reactions and seeking perfection, and advantage through more efficient and more powerful strikes.

 

since 1928 ( the earlest article I have read) this has been known as Body Alarm Reaction. There is a wealth of free information available. Giving it another name does make it insightful. ANY good instructor will start to address this once you hit high KYU levels.

 

Well I for one am sticking with my fists. Apart from the sheer manliness of it, it's what I have the most training in. I do not believe that your hand will always break if you hit somebody with an unprotected fist. I also think that the softer part of your hand is likely to cause less damage to your attacker.

 

although in "SOME" situations(yes flamers i said SOME SITUATIONS) a palm heel may be a more effective fight stopper because(depending on the combatants) it causes more impact and pain than a punch.
a punch is penetration, a palm heel is sheer impact and pushing force, because it does not have the shape/size to penetrate like a punch.
so a punch to the stomach leaves you without air and a lot of pain usually.
a palm heel to the stomach(between the plexus and the first abs) can knock you out immediately(a friend of my bro did it some fifteen years ago, when he was a blue belt in shotokan) or leave you weak like a pacifist computer-addict marshmallow from the pain in your abs(besides it knocks even more air because it is pushing)

of course it does not always work, as sometimes the abs will be too hard and it will require penetration from a punch, or if you have some injury or something that prevents you from making palm strikes without hurting yourself.

FISH OF DOOM

 

Palm heel strikes to the floating rib are rumoured to hurt a lot.

 

:yeleyes: hmhmhmhmhm.... :yeleyes:
*gets painful ideas*
:woo: MOUAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA!!!!! :woo:

nah :Angel:

 

The only benefit to using your fist is gaining another 2-3 inches of reach.

 

I'm tempted, as the author said, to vote for the palm heel. A fist has to be clenched hard in order to not break, and even then the vulnerable carpals of the hand could be affected. With a palm heel, not only do you cover more surface and raise your chances of connecting with a target, but the impact surface (near the wrist) is actually a bent socket joint, with few vulnerable bones. The only risk is catching your fingers or bending the hand too far back.

However, for shots to the body, I prefer a fist. Penetrating power is essential to dig beneath muscle and break bone for optimal stopping power. Again, the same risks apply.

In all honesty, whichever one you train with, you should expect to use.

May you achieve
Satori

 

What he said. There are a few situations in which I would use the Palm Heel, if I could think of it fast enough, but I think that the fists are more versatile and not as easy to break as people sometimes think. I have much more speed with my fists then with open hands, and I am much more comfortable with my wrists straight...I would be more worried about breaking my wrist than my hand. Also, with your fingers pulled back to expose the palm heel, if you miss your target with the palm and graze your fingers hard enough, it is quite easy to break them.

Fists for me.

 

OK let’s see if we can get some real info on this from the people here. How many of you have been in a confrontation and punched with bare closed fist. What was the result?
I have had my hand damaged in a confrontation or two. I haven’t really broken it but it swelled up from the damage. Also if you cut it on their mouth infection is a very real danger. The cuts must be carefully cleaned and you may need antibiotics. This was the reason I first started into hand conditioning. This is not something I would ever mention in a court situation. I was not the first discover of this, look at MA’s history. If you are up on Bruce Lee (as I am sure a lot of you are) damage to his hands in a fight was the reason he stated he started conditioning his hands. I have hard hand so I have been lucky. I have had two female students who broke their hands sparing. I have had a few boxers and kickboxers break their hands sparing with 16 oz gloves. Also look when you look at UFC and Pride some use closed fists and some use open hands. You have seen broken hands at these events. You have also seen closed hand punches with no real effect to the hands that you can see. It comes down to where you hit and how hard you hit. I train everyone to be able to use open hand strikes as well as closed hand strikes. I do encourage anyone with smaller hands to work on open hand strikes instead of closed fist strikes.
I do also agree that you will most likely fight the way you train and spar. This being said you need to train and spar with open hand strikes so you will use it when the time comes.

 

While open hand strikes may be safer, I hate trying to hit straight with my palm. I broke my right wrist a few years back, and it's hard to bend the wrist backwards far enough to do a palm strike. If I am swinging my hand like a slap or something then it's fine because I don't have to bend my wrist, but for straight strikes I prefer fists.

 

I have always used closed fists and never had negative effects aside from reddening of the nuckles moments after a confrontation or peeled skin from catching a button or belt with a strike. So I would have to say the closed fists is my preference and of course I condition my hands to minimize damage. But im looking into palm strikes and might learn some bagua so I guess Ill see what I think then

 

The last time I hit somebody with a closed fist, it hurt him a LOT more than it hurt me.

 

I'm with Knight Errant. I prefer my fists. As for hitting the solar plexus with the heel of the hand -Fish Of Doom, was that your contribution? - that only works on a male, for 'The Obvious Reason'

 

Good thread...

Regards to damage, each had its own pros and cons; I prefer to use palms/palm heels when sparring because I can control them more then punches! Plus from the safety aspect I am worried about damaging my hands, etc.

(As a anecdotal story but I know the person and have seen it, someone I know punched someone in the mouth; cut his hand on the teeth of that person, was infected a night later, had to have part of a finger removed and skin grafted from his hip to his hand, and can not clench a fist now. Moral - dont punch the mouth!)

However, the asm point is a good one to look at - it is well known that blokes broaden their shoulders and clench their fists before starting a ruckus, (mostly, not all the time) and it is quite hard to hit with something you are not 'hardwired' to do.

SW, you can smack someone hard with a reverse palm heel into the solar plexus, but not in a straight strike, more of a slap/uppercut motion - its great because you throw the whole weight of the hand into a strike without needing to tense.

 

Don’t some systems like Silat use slaps and open hand strikes extensively? I got slapped in the neck with a cupped hand once, which was most unpleasant.

Cheers

Paul

 

to the stomach then, it produces the same effect, or to the clavicles, there is no delicate area there, unless the oponent has huge implants.
my reasoninng for attacking the clavicles instead of the stomach is that they may break(duh) causing pain, and throw the opponent off balance, and to palm heel the stomach you need to lower your stance or strain your arm muscles due to the weird angle.

 

i've been rereading some of the posts here, and i have to say from experience a punch does not have to be clenched tightly in order to be strong, you only need to tense a bit the four front fingers(that sounded weird), if you clench your fist, it tenses your arm and it becomes sluggish.
try it, it works for me

 

I'll stick with the leopard fist, thank you very much.