To Kata or not to kata

Discussion in 'General Martial Arts Discussion' started by Cain, Apr 25, 2003.

  1. Cain

    Cain New Member

    We had seen this thread coming, I won't say my views.....YET!

    What do you think about them? Are they worth it? Are they necessarry?

    Let's discuss :D

    |Cain|
     
  2. Sonshu

    Sonshu Buzz me on facebook

    No good!

    I can see little use exept it is a set of moves you can practice on your own!

    This is the only use for it. Still people penalise you for a belt system because your hand was in the wrong place on 2 moves!

    WHAT A LOAD OF CRAP

    The fact that you could be the best self defence person in your dojo is irrelevant.

    There is other stuff brewing on the comeandhaveagoifyouthinkyouhardenough thread - I will not aim to bring it over here!

    SONSHU
     
  3. pgm316

    pgm316 lifting metal

    I agree with Sonshu. I will agree there is some benefit from it, but there is "some" benefit from many things. Its another thing "traditional" martial artists have spent time perfecting and then wondered why they've go their ass kicked when fighting a NON IMAGINARY opponent! ;)

    Another question that must be asked is, what are you going to sacrifice to fit kata training into your classes? Because for many people training time isn't a limitless reource.
     
    Last edited: Apr 25, 2003
  4. Sonshu

    Sonshu Buzz me on facebook

    Mostly

    Kata contridicts the natural movements of YOUR human body - whilst you need to train a certain way to het speed and skill as well as power into your training.

    Kata is the most regimented thing in martial arts - and being a good fighter or competent sparing partner is all about your ability to adapt.

    Kata teached you to much to ditch this - Bad news.

    SONSHU
     
  5. Bon

    Bon Banned Banned

    Kata is old and out-dated, there's no use for it in the modern martial arts anymore.. there are much more effective training methods.
     
  6. KickChick

    KickChick Valued Member

    Some "formless" martial arts like Kickboxing (MT) and Ju-Jitsu are about fighting. There is an "art" in Martial Arts. (again you must note I am a traditionalist)

    However is there really a big difference in kata and shadow boxing? Thats a question... "

    Kata not a good form of training for actual fighting? ..... in preparation for fighting competition, a person may spend many hours 'shadow boxing', which is actually just a spontaneous method of practicing Kata. In all truth, there was a time in martial arts history when all Kata, in all countries, were only extemporaneous, because freestyle practice developed the freedom of movement and the unrestricted mind necessary for excellence in combat.
    First of all it is important to understand what constitutes true Kata. Forms that contain moves which do not have combat significance, especially those which are full of superfluous moves and most especially acrobatics, are not true Kata.
    In some of the older styles of martial arts ....basics, are put together spontaneously to form a kata. The practitioner creates the kata/form by visualizing attackers and moving extemporaneously to counter each one. This type of battle in the mind helps to develop a great deal of sophistication, through the study of technique and its application. The more modern type of martial art training which uses prearranged kata/forms, it is still understood that there is no single set of applications to the moves.

    Regardless of what martial art system you train in, the moves in Kata can be interpreted in at least five different ways.

    1. the front or regular techniques. These are the obvious interpretations, where a punch or kick is done forthright.

    2. meaning the rear or reverse techniques... meaning simply, alternative techniques, or literally the reverse movement forming new interpretations by doing the movements directly in reverse and seeing how they can be applied to actual combat.

    3. Concealed techniques.... hidden in many movements, that seem to be preliminary moves or intermediate moves, are actual striking and throwing skills. Some of the most effective techniques in the martial arts are those that are 'concealed.'

    4. Variation techniques, are the many modifications which can be performed using any of the basic moves. Many martial artists think that a certain technique can only be used against one attack or one type of attack. Yet the truth is, that once you understand the principles upon which the technique is based, and have a full understanding of combat rhythm, then the particular move can be applied against many different attacks.

    5. Sacrifice techniques. These are techniques to be used when you are at a disadvantage or in an awkward position. These are techniques in which you purposefully throw yourself off balance which allow you to counter attack the opponent by surprise.

    To master all 5 of these areas of kata allows a person to have formlessness even in prearranged forms, and to develop a complete understanding of the potential of their martial arts in combat. This is the problem of practicing the martial arts as sports only.
    Each move should be looked at for what it can accomplish under any self defense circumstance.

    Kata is at the highest level of training takes place ... it allows you to develop a true understanding of movement through technique and it'sd application.

    The kata must always be practiced correctly: real combat is another matter. -Gitchin Funakoshi
     
  7. KickChick

    KickChick Valued Member

    ... so possibly is your grandmother but are you going to do away with her.... she may have a wealth of knowledge to share with you!
     
  8. Cain

    Cain New Member

    Ouch! Lookinng at Sonshu's post it seems like I have started a red hot topic :D

    The most common argument is -

    "It's no substitute for sparring"

    So are drills a substitute for sparring? Why do drills at all if you are just kicking in the air? Why not just spar instead? It's because they are for perfection of techniques

    There are many applications in Kata which can't be practiced by sparring, theyu are simply drills which are put together by forms, also they help develop muscle momory ie moving fluently from one technique to another

    You can avoid Kata if you want but it has a use not as much as sparring but it can be a valuable addition to our set of tools.

    Just my two coppers worth please don't hurt me :)

    PS - Try to keep it a bit cool ok?
     
  9. keef

    keef Valued Member

    In the Seven Star Mantis system I practice there are many Forms (katas) & in my view are very valuable.

    If the forms are taught only as a dance then they are useless apart from giving you co-ordination, balance skills etc but the beauty of forms is in knowing the applications.

    You learn a form, learn the applications, take the form to bits, look at the applications again, some applications may appear just empty hands but can also be weapon. The forms are not just a set of techniques but a set of theories, fighting theories. Our forms may teach things such as stricking low (fake) then high, block & punch at the same time. Therefore if the form has a high block with a straight punch at the same time I have been provided with a theory not just a technique.

    The forms are not diluted or influenced by the more sporting aspects of martial arts which includes rules (sparring).

    I my previous martial studies we would learn forms, stances etc but never use them whilst sparring etc, now I learn forms, stances, learn the applications and put this & the theories into practice when sparring.

    Keef
     
  10. Sonshu

    Sonshu Buzz me on facebook

    Kick Chick

    I read your post and think its well a lot of "Groovy word bending" I have done a lot of Kata and I agree you have to learn the basic techniques to ensure you have a credible defence even when you are attacking.

    prackice this against a partner as they attack. Kata will help with balance as such but less than training with a partner.

    Kata put everything in a perfect non dangerious enviroment, now you can still do this with a parter but you learn the most important things in martial arts. Distance, timing and technique selection.

    This will become natural and then you know how to compensate a technique if you are too far away or close or on the defensive. It compliments your sparing and becomes natural not pre determined.

    Kata can in NO way offer more than training with other people can. I would challenge anyone on this site to prove me wrong, it is only of use if you have noone to train with - since I have pointed this out this is not an arguement!

    Let the battle begin.

    SONSHU
     
  11. Cain

    Cain New Member

    Yeah tell me Sonshu how you you practise grabbing a person and kneeing him in the groin and following with an elbow and eye jab?

    You won't get too many partners if you practise with them that way :D

    |Cain|
     
  12. pgm316

    pgm316 lifting metal

    Said the man in the pyjamas as he regained consciousness and was helped to his feet :p

    I think theres a massive difference. Shadow boxing is random, suddenly imagining an attack coming in then responding. Kata is only a set routine, how can it be spontanious :confused:

    There isn't the learning in shadow boxing, people won't say you responded wrong then, because its you that responds, not the kata.
     
  13. Andy Murray

    Andy Murray Sadly passed away. Rest In Peace.

    Re: Mostly

    I dare say this is true of the way many Kata are taught, and seems to be true of your own personal experience of it. That's not to say we all share the same experience or opinion.

    Kata should be the core database your skills in a specific Trad MA are constructed from. I can show you hundreds of Self-Defence techniques gleaned from Kata. You can then drill these in a more practical way with a partner in a more scenario driven environment. Not only did these techniques come from the Kata, they were inspired by it. Using Visualisation during Kata, as opposed to going through the motions like a puppet, makes your brain work. It switches you on. It focusses you.

    Drill work is a tool.

    Sparring is a tool.

    Reality training is a tool.

    Kata is a tool.

    The tools you use are up to you, but let's hope you never have a job to do, and find you've left the right tool behind.
     
  14. Cain

    Cain New Member

    Andy, you dunno how much a refief it is to have you on this side :D

    I could'nt imagine exchanging quotes with you <<<SHUDDER>>>

    Kata is a set routine with applications which we normally do not drill or are impossible to spar with

    The key is in understanding the applications

    |Cain|
     
  15. Andy Murray

    Andy Murray Sadly passed away. Rest In Peace.

  16. Sonshu

    Sonshu Buzz me on facebook

    Ok here you go

    _________________________

    how you you practise grabbing a person and kneeing him in the groin and following with an elbow and eye jab?

    _________________________

    Cain

    Here you go - firstly I would use the eye jab as the set up (I would stop safely short of this) as I as grabbing him (Can do this), the knee controlled and to the stomach area (how I would do this) then the elbow to finish (either stop short or the opponent cover up with both arms and control it)

    There is your answer. However in Kata, there is no LIVE target to focus your footwork, timeing, speed and accuracy against.

    This is why Kata is a poor substitute.

    Anymore?

    SONSHU
     
  17. pgm316

    pgm316 lifting metal

    Re: Re: Mostly

    Once they are gleaned from kata, why not just teach them as a drill? Isn't that better than spending far more time teaching the kata knowing most people will only pull a small amount of techniques out.
     
  18. Cain

    Cain New Member

    Re: Ok here you go

    True but you are still holding your power

    PGM -

    Katas are drills put together so you can move fluently from one technique to another (I mentioned this b'fore, don't make me say it again!)

    Put together a series of drills and you have got something very close to Kata

    |Cain|

    ps - not in my best debating mood, watching project A :D
     
  19. Andy Murray

    Andy Murray Sadly passed away. Rest In Peace.

    Re: Re: Re: Mostly

    If someone hadn't spent time teaching me the Kata, where would these techniques have come from?
    If Self Defence is your motivation, then yes, drill work will provide a quick fix, but it won't necessarily create an adaptable individual who can react well when something happens that he's never encountered in a drill.

    Kata gives you a way of seeing techniques or drills if you prefer, linked in sequences you may not have thought of by yourself.

    There is a very important opponent in Kata.......YOU!
     
  20. Sonshu

    Sonshu Buzz me on facebook

    Andy

    _____________________________

    I dare say this is true of the way many Kata are taught, and seems to be true of your own personal experience of it. That's not to say we all share the same experience or opinion.
    _____________________________

    Ans: Why does every Kata when have moves that are no use and designed to link one to the other - I agree its my oppinion but I think if everyone thought through every move in all there Kata they will come to the same conclusion. Best method of testing it is do it with someone who does another style or a non martial arts person - when they ask you stuff it will become clear that things have been added for just the sake of tidying it up

    _____________________________

    Kata should be the core database your skills in a specific Trad MA are constructed from. I can show you hundreds of Self-Defence techniques gleaned from Kata.
    _____________________________

    Ans: Kata does show you moves, so do bruce lee films, if you want to get a database of moves then learn them with other partners in a more realistic enviroment, yes hundreds of moves, 35% or so are just there to link you to another one.

    ______________________________

    You can then drill these in a more practical way with a partner in a more scenario driven environment.
    ______________________________

    Ans: Dont visualise them - do it - do it in a senario - if you have the ability to train in a safe manner until you develope then just do senario's, it allows you to get the feel of the live technique, saves you looking a div by jumping around the halls doing stuff that does not work.
    ______________________________

    Using Visualisation during Kata, as opposed to going through the motions like a puppet, makes your brain work. It switches you on. It focusses you.
    ______________________________

    Ans: Don't imagin things that are not there - deal with what is, the visualisation will come from training with other different people, then you will have new problems. Just remember variety is the spice of life, not someone moving your hand a 1/2 inch on a block as its too far over for your next grading.


    Tag your it - thanks for your reply though Andy and Cain!

    SONSHU
     

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