Taijutsu???

[Miran]

We are all taught that taijutsu is a part of ninjutsu's system dealing with hand-to-hand combat.What I'm wandering is if it's really of ninpo origin.People like to think that taijutsu incorporates koppo and kosshi techniques...Well maybe it does today but originally...I'd think not!As I understand it kosshijutsu originates from China.Also there is a lot of taijutsu referal in budo arts (like aikido and jujutsu).And from what I've heared ninjas in Iga and Koga davelopped their own system of fighting which they learned from nature (as Takamatsu Sensei stated) called "hicho koppo karate" (empty-hand bone-breaking method of flying bird).So as far as we know koppojutsu is the only original ninpo empty-hand fighting system.
And when it comes to taijutsu I think that terms of dakentaijutsu and jutaijutsu are of recent date because other referals inmartial arts just mention dakenjutsu and jujutsu (just to be incorporated into taijutsu classification).In my oppinion those are separate jutsu not necessarily depending on taijutsu.
Hatsumi Sensei is Soke of Shindenfudo Ryu Daken(tai)jutsu.Nevertheless when it comes to discussion of Shindenfudo Ryu's history everyone talks about the inscription above the door of Shinryuken Masamitsu Toda’s dojo which comprises term Shindenfudo Ryu Jujutsu.So I’m wandering : Is it possible that Hatsumi Sensei was awarded Sokeship just over one aspect of this school or is it about something else.

[xplasma]

Taijutsu is a just a generic term to refer to the unarmed combats of a school. It is not a unique term to Ninpou. Asayama Ichiden Ryu calls its unarmed arts Taijutsu as well. Each school "Taijutsu" can be very different. Taijutsu that makes up the x-kan style of ninpou comes from different schools of Taijutsu including Koshijutsu from Gyokko Ryu, Koppojutsu from Koto Ryu (and it the Genbukan, Gikan Ryu), DakenTaijutsu (Shinden Fudo Ryu in the Bujinkan and Kukushiden Ryu in the Genbukan) and Jutaijutsu from Takagi Yoshin Ryu and Shinden Fudo Ryu (in The Genbukan include Asamaya Ichiden Ryu).

Also Miran, Shinden Fudo Ryu has 2 elements DakenTaijutsu and Jutaijutsu. And it is possible to have different grandmaster for different aspects of a school.

You are correct in mentioning that DakenTaijutsu and Jutaijutsu aren't ninpou fighting system but something added recently. Koppojutsu and Koshijutsu are the Iga Ninpou fighting system. Most people don't know that Koto Ryu includes Shurikenjutsu, Shinobijutsu and other "ninja" elements. and Togakure Ryu didn't even appear till the 1950s.

Taijutsu is not a "art" but a description. The Taijutsu from all the styles above are very different, but are still all Taijutsu.

[Miran]

Thank you.I figured it was something like that.

[dannysnightout]

Originally Posted by xplasma

Taijutsu is a just a generic term to refer to the unarmed combats of a school. It is not a unique term to Ninpou. Asayama Ichiden Ryu calls its unarmed arts Taijutsu as well. Each school "Taijutsu" can be very different. Taijutsu that makes up the x-kan style of ninpou comes from different schools of Taijutsu including Koshijutsu from Gyokko Ryu, Koppojutsu from Koto Ryu (and it the Genbukan, Gikan Ryu), DakenTaijutsu (Shinden Fudo Ryu in the Bujinkan and Kukushiden Ryu in the Genbukan) and Jutaijutsu from Takagi Yoshin Ryu and Shinden Fudo Ryu (in The Genbukan include Asamaya Ichiden Ryu).

Also Miran, Shinden Fudo Ryu has 2 elements DakenTaijutsu and Jutaijutsu. And it is possible to have different grandmaster for different aspects of a school.

You are correct in mentioning that DakenTaijutsu and Jutaijutsu aren't ninpou fighting system but something added recently. Koppojutsu and Koshijutsu are the Iga Ninpou fighting system. Most people don't know that Koto Ryu includes Shurikenjutsu, Shinobijutsu and other "ninja" elements. and Togakure Ryu didn't even appear till the 1950s.

Taijutsu is not a "art" but a description. The Taijutsu from all the styles above are very different, but are still all Taijutsu.

Maybe im not understanding what your saying but, how can Hatsumi-Sensei be the 34th generation of Togakure Ryu and its only been around since the 1950's?

[Devil Hanzo]

He said it didn't appear until the 1950's, not that it wasn't around before then.

[Rubber Tanto]

What xplasma said is correct in that while Hatsum claims to be the 34th Soke of a style that his teacher claims to be the 33rd Soke of, The style did not appear till the 1950s. Proof of if the lineage really exists is not what is being said here, just that the lineage was not made public until the 50s.

[Rubber Tanto]

Originally Posted by Devil Hanzo

He said it didn't appear until the 1950's, not that it wasn't around before then.

You beat me to it!
(And said it in less words)

[shadow_ronin]

Many records were lost and burned during WW2. Some newer records were retransmitted orally from memory (In the case of Kukishinden ryu).

Taijutsu can be translated as the movement of the body (among other things). It's just a general term we use to describe any sort of natural movement of the body (That was the description last year when exploring the theme of Shizen, might change this year though)

[dannysnightout]

sorry for the misunderstanding and thanks for clearing it up.

[Fusen]

''Taijutsu that makes up the x-kan style of ninpou comes from different schools of Taijutsu including Koshijutsu from Gyokko Ryu, Koppojutsu from Koto Ryu (and it the Genbukan, Gikan Ryu), DakenTaijutsu (Shinden Fudo Ryu in the Bujinkan and Kukushiden Ryu in the Genbukan) and Jutaijutsu from Takagi Yoshin Ryu and Shinden Fudo Ryu (in The Genbukan include Asamaya Ichiden Ryu).''

This information is incorrect, Shinden Fudo Ryu Daken-Taijutsu is taught within the Genbukan.

http://www.genbukan.org/cgi-bin/site.pl?ryu_soke

[gakure]

Not while I was in the Genbukan

The Shodan testing was Kukishinden Daken, Koto Ryu Koppo and Gyokko Ryu Koshi. Has it changed?

[garth]

In regard to Taijutsu, Koppojutsu, Koshijutsu etc, according to Mr Tanemura on his Interview DVD he mentions that these names kind of date the schools. I.e Koppojutsu/Koshijutsu, then Dakentaijutsu then Jutaijutsu then Jujutsu then judo.

In fact some schools actually changed names. I seem to remember that Takagi Yoshin Ryu was originally Takagi Yoshin Ryu Dakentaijutsu and then latter became Jutaijutsu. So that Dakentaijutsu/Jutaijutsu does not necesarily mean Striking/grappling but is linked to period of history.

However having said that according to Mr Tanemura Ninpo Taijutsu is not just unarmed combat but that Dakentaijutsu, Koppojutsu, Koshijutsu etc as well as the 36 Ninpo Essentials are part of Ninpo Taijutsu.

Garth

[fifthchamber]

With all due respect to Mr. Tanemura, the names chosen by the various schools only very vaguely indicate the era that they were created..

While it is easy to make a wide statement that is generally passable, in specifics that line falls down rather quickly..

There is no obvious progression from Jutaijutsu to Jujutsu to Judo at all (for example) and the names for what these things are called is and always has been entirely up to the man who named them..

As pointed out, those original names are also changed to suit new theories and ideas by the successors to the line and should indicate very little in the way of age and rather more in the method of thinking of the man who created the names..

Regards.

[whiteshadow711j]

Originally Posted by gakure

Not while I was in the Genbukan

The Shodan testing was Kukishinden Daken, Koto Ryu Koppo and Gyokko Ryu Koshi. Has it changed?

Not that I know of, but hey I'm in the Bujinkan now..

Hey Gakure, send me a email, I have something you might want (it concerns Asayama Ichiden Ryu).

[garth]

Fifth Chamber posted

With all due respect to Mr. Tanemura, the names chosen by the various schools only very vaguely indicate the era that they were created..

Your right they don't. Even Takagi Yoshin Ryu seems to stem from Juppo Sessho before it was called Takagi Yoshin Ryu, and before Juppo Sessho was probably from China.

While it is easy to make a wide statement that is generally passable, in specifics that line falls down rather quickly..

Yes they do, beacause if one looks at Takagi Yoshin Ryu it would be quite easy to say that it stemmed from a certain period because its called Jutaijutsu, without realisng it was called Dakentaijutsu before that.

However having said that some schools Gyokko Ryu have not changed their name when it comes to their classification of techniues i.e Koshijutsu except that it was also called Shitojutsu. And hence we can see that Gyokko Ru by the term "Koshi" is in fact quite old.

There is no obvious progression from Jutaijutsu to Jujutsu to Judo at all (for example) and the names for what these things are called is and always has been entirely up to the man who named them..

Your right of course the latest grandmaster is responsible for changing the name based perhaps on the latest style. It makes sense that if other martial arts of your period are called X that you call your style X and when the style becomes Z yo change it to Z. even Kukishin Ryu has been called Jujutsu when in previous times it was called something else.

I guess what i am saying is that certain words i.e Koshijutsu, Jutaijutsu, Dakentaijutsu can be loosely connected to the period they were popular and martial arts changed the name when the style (fad) changed.

Garth