We are all taught that taijutsu is a part of ninjutsu's system dealing with hand-to-hand combat.What I'm wandering is if it's really of ninpo origin.People like to think that taijutsu incorporates koppo and kosshi techniques...Well maybe it does today but originally...I'd think not!As I understand it kosshijutsu originates from China.Also there is a lot of taijutsu referal in budo arts (like aikido and jujutsu).And from what I've heared ninjas in Iga and Koga davelopped their own system of fighting which they learned from nature (as Takamatsu Sensei stated) called "hicho koppo karate" (empty-hand bone-breaking method of flying bird).So as far as we know koppojutsu is the only original ninpo empty-hand fighting system. And when it comes to taijutsu I think that terms of dakentaijutsu and jutaijutsu are of recent date because other referals inmartial arts just mention dakenjutsu and jujutsu (just to be incorporated into taijutsu classification).In my oppinion those are separate jutsu not necessarily depending on taijutsu. Hatsumi Sensei is Soke of Shindenfudo Ryu Daken(tai)jutsu.Nevertheless when it comes to discussion of Shindenfudo Ryu's history everyone talks about the inscription above the door of Shinryuken Masamitsu Toda’s dojo which comprises term Shindenfudo Ryu Jujutsu.So I’m wandering : Is it possible that Hatsumi Sensei was awarded Sokeship just over one aspect of this school or is it about something else.
Taijutsu is a just a generic term to refer to the unarmed combats of a school. It is not a unique term to Ninpou. Asayama Ichiden Ryu calls its unarmed arts Taijutsu as well. Each school "Taijutsu" can be very different. Taijutsu that makes up the x-kan style of ninpou comes from different schools of Taijutsu including Koshijutsu from Gyokko Ryu, Koppojutsu from Koto Ryu (and it the Genbukan, Gikan Ryu), DakenTaijutsu (Shinden Fudo Ryu in the Bujinkan and Kukushiden Ryu in the Genbukan) and Jutaijutsu from Takagi Yoshin Ryu and Shinden Fudo Ryu (in The Genbukan include Asamaya Ichiden Ryu). Also Miran, Shinden Fudo Ryu has 2 elements DakenTaijutsu and Jutaijutsu. And it is possible to have different grandmaster for different aspects of a school. You are correct in mentioning that DakenTaijutsu and Jutaijutsu aren't ninpou fighting system but something added recently. Koppojutsu and Koshijutsu are the Iga Ninpou fighting system. Most people don't know that Koto Ryu includes Shurikenjutsu, Shinobijutsu and other "ninja" elements. and Togakure Ryu didn't even appear till the 1950s. Taijutsu is not a "art" but a description. The Taijutsu from all the styles above are very different, but are still all Taijutsu.
Maybe im not understanding what your saying but, how can Hatsumi-Sensei be the 34th generation of Togakure Ryu and its only been around since the 1950's?
What xplasma said is correct in that while Hatsum claims to be the 34th Soke of a style that his teacher claims to be the 33rd Soke of, The style did not appear till the 1950s. Proof of if the lineage really exists is not what is being said here, just that the lineage was not made public until the 50s.
Many records were lost and burned during WW2. Some newer records were retransmitted orally from memory (In the case of Kukishinden ryu). Taijutsu can be translated as the movement of the body (among other things). It's just a general term we use to describe any sort of natural movement of the body (That was the description last year when exploring the theme of Shizen, might change this year though)
''Taijutsu that makes up the x-kan style of ninpou comes from different schools of Taijutsu including Koshijutsu from Gyokko Ryu, Koppojutsu from Koto Ryu (and it the Genbukan, Gikan Ryu), DakenTaijutsu (Shinden Fudo Ryu in the Bujinkan and Kukushiden Ryu in the Genbukan) and Jutaijutsu from Takagi Yoshin Ryu and Shinden Fudo Ryu (in The Genbukan include Asamaya Ichiden Ryu).'' This information is incorrect, Shinden Fudo Ryu Daken-Taijutsu is taught within the Genbukan. http://www.genbukan.org/cgi-bin/site.pl?ryu_soke
Not while I was in the Genbukan The Shodan testing was Kukishinden Daken, Koto Ryu Koppo and Gyokko Ryu Koshi. Has it changed?
In regard to Taijutsu, Koppojutsu, Koshijutsu etc, according to Mr Tanemura on his Interview DVD he mentions that these names kind of date the schools. I.e Koppojutsu/Koshijutsu, then Dakentaijutsu then Jutaijutsu then Jujutsu then judo. In fact some schools actually changed names. I seem to remember that Takagi Yoshin Ryu was originally Takagi Yoshin Ryu Dakentaijutsu and then latter became Jutaijutsu. So that Dakentaijutsu/Jutaijutsu does not necesarily mean Striking/grappling but is linked to period of history. However having said that according to Mr Tanemura Ninpo Taijutsu is not just unarmed combat but that Dakentaijutsu, Koppojutsu, Koshijutsu etc as well as the 36 Ninpo Essentials are part of Ninpo Taijutsu. Garth
With all due respect to Mr. Tanemura, the names chosen by the various schools only very vaguely indicate the era that they were created.. While it is easy to make a wide statement that is generally passable, in specifics that line falls down rather quickly.. There is no obvious progression from Jutaijutsu to Jujutsu to Judo at all (for example) and the names for what these things are called is and always has been entirely up to the man who named them.. As pointed out, those original names are also changed to suit new theories and ideas by the successors to the line and should indicate very little in the way of age and rather more in the method of thinking of the man who created the names.. Regards.
Not that I know of, but hey I'm in the Bujinkan now.. Hey Gakure, send me a email, I have something you might want (it concerns Asayama Ichiden Ryu).
Fifth Chamber posted Your right they don't. Even Takagi Yoshin Ryu seems to stem from Juppo Sessho before it was called Takagi Yoshin Ryu, and before Juppo Sessho was probably from China. Yes they do, beacause if one looks at Takagi Yoshin Ryu it would be quite easy to say that it stemmed from a certain period because its called Jutaijutsu, without realisng it was called Dakentaijutsu before that. However having said that some schools Gyokko Ryu have not changed their name when it comes to their classification of techniues i.e Koshijutsu except that it was also called ****ojutsu. And hence we can see that Gyokko Ru by the term "Koshi" is in fact quite old. Your right of course the latest grandmaster is responsible for changing the name based perhaps on the latest style. It makes sense that if other martial arts of your period are called X that you call your style X and when the style becomes Z yo change it to Z. even Kukishin Ryu has been called Jujutsu when in previous times it was called something else. I guess what i am saying is that certain words i.e Koshijutsu, Jutaijutsu, Dakentaijutsu can be loosely connected to the period they were popular and martial arts changed the name when the style (fad) changed. Garth
While the point about dating a school by the terminology it uses is sort of valid, it's also far from reliable. Yes, schools of a period maybe use certain terms because they are currently fashionable. We can look at our own time period for this. Reality Based Self Defence, Mixed Martial Arts, these are both western examples that have been adopted by a number of different styles to describe what they do. But let's say I create my own system of martial arts. Erm, I'll call it Kido because there happens to be a key on the desk next to me. But it's not just Kido, I'll call it Kido Koppojutsu. Even though I just made it up, by giving it an old name I could give it an air of authority derived from apparent age. People like stuff that is old. It gives a sense of connection to history, to authority. So sometimes they give things names to suggest an old lineage where none exists. Sometimes they wear older styles of armour to give themselves the appearance of being connected to history. In Japan, it was in vogue for a time to wear styles of armour from a much earlier period of history to suggest that the wearer was connected to those earlier times and the heroic legends they spawned. And the names of schools change throughout their history. This is perfectly natural. The head of the school might change the name as he hears something that describes his art better or he might change it based upon his personal development or what image he wishes to project into the public gaze or whatever.
''Not while I was in the Genbukan The Shodan testing was Kukishinden Daken, Koto Ryu Koppo and Gyokko Ryu Koshi. Has it changed?'' No the rank requirements for Shodan haven’t changed, however other Dan ranks have different requirements. Plus at a higher level the separate Ryu-ha can be studied separately, as shown by this link http://www.genbukan.org/cgi-bin/site.pl?ryu_soke Tanemura Soke has the qualifications, and as shown by this link http://www.genbukan.org/cgi-bin/site.pl?1315&csProduct_productID=227 He is also prepared to show/teach it. Please if posting something as fact about the Genbukan take the time to research it. Many thanks for taking the time to read this.
Kusa posted Actually they have. the Shodan and Nidan etc used to include the whole of Kukishinden Ryu Shoden, Koto Ryu Shoden etc up to approx 64 or 72 kata. Later it was stripped down to approx 18 which is what white shadow posted. It also included techniques from Asayama Ichiden Ryu. Garth
Thanks for the correction garth, I've never heard that before, I supose I should of said what year did you test for shoden to compare then and now as it were. Still the fact that different ranks have different requirements still stands. Do you know if the Asayama Ichiden Ryu requirements changed when the KJJR came into being, or was it at another time?
Well, as much as this thread was fun for a Friday afternoon, I'm afraid I'm now going to have to clean it up and put it back on topic. Thanks to all involved for the good humour. :Angel: Of course the real reason for this is protect the secret existence of Kido Koppojutsu..... EDIT - Thread now cleaned up and back on topic.
