Per Yoda's suggestion, I'm posting a journal entry I wrote here. Lemme know what you think. (Unless you think it sucks, in which case, feel free to keep that to yourself.) Stuart
Fencing and MA's Regarding the modern fencing part - Not bad at all! I think a lot of your observations are right. I've done fencing (the modern olympic variety) on and off for 24 years and an MA (CKD) for three. There are useful things to translate between the two but there are plenty that don't as CKD (as taught to me) doesn't use any weapons. People who have trained in MA's or boxing are usually fit and quick but initially can get frustrated if they take up fencing because they keep getting hit by people that they would regard as slower and weaker in an MA or boxing environment - why? For the most part it is down to technique and timing. Very good fencers can execute a move with minimal movement of fingers, wrist and arm and hit you while you charge up and down the piste. The smallness of the hand movements speeds up the action and the accurate timing means minimal foot movements to get the opponent in range. Whilst this helps you win foil fights it is usually impractical for self defence as the fencer who wins a point can still get hit without it counting against him as long as he has shown right of way on the attack or riposte (riposte = counter attack after a succesful defence). I like doing both, but for now I find that I'm doing them for their own reasons rather than because I think there is a lot of synergy between my CKD and fencing. W
Cheers Wynnston! I never did get my brain fully wrapped around right of way, to be perfectly honest. I get the general idea. But I'm still unclear on all its implications. To me, if we both get hit (regardless of who hit first), I'm still going to consider that a loss. (Of course, I know the ideal is always going to be a clean hit.) Too right with regard to getting beaten by people I felt I should have been able to "take." I remember one of the history professors coming to the fencing club in college once. He literally beat everyone in the club, one after another, with those tiny little movements you mentioned. Same with this small, older Russian woman at the club. My friend told me to fence her because she was really good. And while she was pretty winded afterward, she completely schooled me. Tagged me three times for every one time I tagged her. Anyway, thanks for speaking up Wynnston. I'm glad someone with a (much) stronger background in fencing than me is around to contribute. Stuart
Glad to be of help - it feels a bit weird being able to post on something I know a lot about rather than being the constant newbie! Do you think you will do much fencing in the future? For me to train seriously in both at the same time is too much for my brain and body. I'm hoping to go for my 1st BB in March / April next year and have pretty much given up fencing until I do it because I feel I'm getting pulled in different directions technically and physically. Cheers W
Man, 24 years makes you a premier resource in my books! Probably not. I'm in the same boat. Actually, I'm working full time during the day, attending graduate school full time at night. I'm married and I've got a daughter on the way. So I'm being pulled in a few directions myself. I've stopped fencing for now because my first love is and probably always will be empty hand. And with so little time these days, I can't really do both. But I wouldn't mind picking up the foil again from time to time. It's good fun, fencing. Even if I can't devote enough time for a serious study. Good luck with that test mate. With your background, it's obvious you've got whatever it takes to succeed at that. Stuart
Many thanks! I should in all fairness point out that the 24 years is elapsed time, I've probably fenced foil and epee actively for about 15-17 years of that. I'll let you know how the BBG went! Cheers W ps Good luck with your new nipper - I've got 3 and life is great with them. My only advice is to sleep a lot now as you will miss it when it's gone!
Fifteen to seventeen is nothing to snark at either, mate. Thanks! I'm a little worried about the sleep thing, yeah. But to quote Jason Statham in The Transporter, "the deal is the deal." I can roll with that. Stuart
Nice And I ahve a few things to add from the stand point of someone who has no plans of ever learning Modern/olypmic fencing, From what I undertstand from sport fencers is that right of way is more a way to train u and thgat foil is training for epee, when touble touches counts IIRC. So right of way is more of a tool or a process to make sure u defend urself and if u do it right u dont get tagged when u get right of way. But tahts jsut my opinion and the garbled knowledge Ive gained from talking with other sport fencers. And while I was doing some SCA period fencing.....it was too terribly historicial i think , while there was alot done on my foot work, which is aout eh onl thing I retained, it was moslty hwo to move while kee[ping ur balcnea dnb to lunge and move in single time with a rapier, whic is heavier and slower than a epee or foil as well as longer Ther weas no implied or out right spoekn way whether u should move in certain way as long ur feet and lead knee lined u right so when u lunged u didnt blow it out and how to corss step and to do the sprt fencer shuffle. and I leave with bit of info whcih is alost comon knowledge around here, fighting is fighting and the human body can only mocve in so many different ways and less with a weapon of a certain length andw eight. Hence the simlariaties between diferent armed MAs and lots of unarmed MAs as well.
Right of way is fundamental to foil and sabre - you'll never win a fight without understanding it. Stop hits are counter attacks into an attack but you still have to understand right of way to get a stop hit 'in time'. Foil is training for epee? As a foilist, words fail me on this one! Epee has no rules governing right of way and is regarded as the easiest weapon to learn and get results at quickly. Epee is also regarded by foilists and sabreurs as terminally boring and you'll only find them doing it when they're either injured or too old and slow to do the other two weapons . I'll probably be doing more of it in the next few years . W
Hopefully a little useful background Greetings all. Wynsston, you certainly have a lot more time on the strip than I, but I am surprised at your reaction to the Foil as a training tool for the Epee. Modern fencing has it's roots in the "Gentlemen's Salon" as a training ground for Smallsword play. The 18th century fashion and passion for duelling, while still highly illegal, was overwhelming among the aristocracy, and the only way to practice the smallsword (without maiming your partner) is with a blunted and/or flexible facsimile. The Foil is what fills this role. It is a training tool. The smaller target areas, the more rigid rules of right-of-way, etc. are all training aids to teach the swordsman to learn to think and fight in small, efficient ways, and learn highly accurate targeting. The other aspects of Right-Of-Way to consider is that as a Gentlemanly sport, it is of utmost importance to be proper about it. Can't have you looking like a common rogue now, can we? Now that you've learned the ropes on a Foil, you're ready to play. But, we can't exactly go around poking everybody in the lungs now, can we? The Epee is then developed as the safe way to "swordfight" without resorting to the actual bloodshed involved in smallswords. All of the training restraints are pulled away, and you are now left with a mildly painful sportive combat, that allows you to hit wherever you can, with far less restraints (although still a small amount of Gentlemanly rules of conduct are present). Sure, it's a lot easier to score points, but a tight Epeeist is one of the most graceful and lovely combatants to watch, as well as being on the receiving end of more than just a few Epee hits, it is a sport that really let's you know when you've been nailed good, or more importantly, the reaction on your opponents face when you hit solidly... The Fencing Sabre comes into the equation at a later date, and it too follows the trend of the blades. Where the Smallsword is the 18th century duelling blade of the retiring Gentlemen, in the 19th Century, the Cavalry Saber comes forward as the tool of the aspiring Soldier (the Napoleoninc wars, etc., inspired new generations of wealthy young men to go 'seek honor and glory' in the wars). Again, the less lethal training tool is entreched in the practical aspects of it's lethal cousin, and is given a set of rules to mirror it's anticipated application. As a horseman, your target now consists of everything above the waist, etc... In a parallel universe, you also have the German tradition of the Mensuren and it's associated Shlager play. Fairly similar to Sabre play, it's note of distinction lies in the fact that there are no masks, just neck padding and goggles, and to have a Shlager scar across your face demonstrates your Bravado, and having shared a blood bond with your Fraternity. For further explorations on the roots of modern fencing, I would highly recommend reading Christoph Amberger's "Secret History of the Sword". His website has quite a of excerpts from the book, as well as a lot of additional articles: http://www.swordhistory.com/ To bring this back to the original topic, there is an excellent essay on that site regarding the ties (or lack thereof) between Arnis and the Spanish schools of fence. It's an exceprt of a book written by Mark V. Wiley, "Arnis: History and Development of the Filipino Martial Arts": http://www.swordhistory.com/excerpts/eskrima.html As far as the "flick" goes, there are at least three distinctly different origins, and only it's application will help you gauge whether it's a cheap shot or not... The first two are from the Rapier traditions. The first involves a quick flick with the tip of the blade towards the face. I can't recall exactly the name of this cut (stramazone maybe?), but it's purpose was to draw blood over your opponents eyes or forehead, and potentially unsettle them. It's not a lethal shot, just a quick slash to let them know you mean business, and to harass their resolve in their skill. The second I have less faith in, as I've never seen it documented, only described from other people, although it is demonstrably effective when seen. It is rumored to stem from the Spanish school of Rapier play, a much more "horizontal" and "heads-up" way of fence. The idea is that with a fully extended guard, and your point directed straight into the eyes of your opponent, a quick flick (with a fairly flexible blade) will inexorably draw your opponents attention up. The coup de grace that follows is a straight lunge into the throat or head during that momentarily misdirection and distraction. It works, but I'm not too confident of it's history. The last, and in my opinion the true "cheap shot", stems from the introduction of the pistol grip foil. While I recognize the finger position of this grip is much closer to that of the Rapier, and a true boon for tip control, the abuse of this is due to the added power in the fingers over the flexibility of the foil. The pistol grip allows you to really pinpoint your shot, but someone figured out that if they snap the hand out, they can sometimes get a shot that will flex over a perfectly good parry, or whip into a valid target. I've seen fencers get almost a 90 degree bend in their blade and turn what would have been a simple blockade into a shot in the neck or sternum. Another reason why in my opinion Epee is the better weapon for demonstrating skill of point over Foil. Ever try to whip an Epee? At any rate, nice thread. Take care, Matthew
Domenico, Comprehensive post! I'll admit my knowledge of fencing history is not great and you seem to have done a lot of research. However, my somewhat tongue in cheek comments about epee are based on experience of the British sport fencing scene and clubs rather than any historical context or the derivation of foil when epee was still a duelling weapon. In a historical context you're probably right that foil was used more for training prior to duelling with epee like weapons. I can't agree that epee is more graceful than foil, but which is best is obviously a matter of opinion. A well executed compound attack that completely fools the opponent and ends with an accurate hit is a real joy to behold and isn't seen in epee. Believe it or not I have actually seen flick type hits with epee but mainly amongst the younger fencers (well younger than me anyway!). I've also seen the turn and over the shoulder riposte used in epee that's more commonly used in foil. Flick hits in foil and simultaneous attacks in foil and sabre are being addressed in major competitions by recent changes to the timings of electronic equipment. I've only tried the new kit once and it seems fine to me but I'm not an inveterate flicker. Apparantly most foilists and sabreurs don't like it but we'll see what the opinions are after a season of using it. W.
"...when epee was still a duelling weapon..." Wynnston, I'm not picking on you, as I understand in the context of your statement, you're referring to the Anthology and design of the weapon more than it's usage, but I've seen this statement a few times on this site (in the context *I'm* referring to), so I am merely going to use it as an example for those who stumble across it in the future... An Epee is not a duelling sword. Neither are Foils, Fencing Sabres, Shlagers or Dussacks. They are tools of Sportive Combat. Call them by their names, call them SLO's (sword-like objects), call them anything you like, except for calling them lethal weapons. Sure, a broken tipped Epee can kill you, but it's kind of like referring to a can of soup as a hammer. Again, I'm not picking on Wynsston, he just happened to string the words together in a manner that is too often cited as matter of fact and I wanted to nip the myth in the bud. Now, if we can just get people to realize that Rapiers are Civilian Weapons/Fashion Accesories, and that when you go to war, you pick up a Sword... I'm always shocked and amazed at how many simultaneous threads aguing between the Katana and Rapier occur around the world.... I'm glad to hear that FASA (or whomever is in charge of Modern Fencing nowadays, I can't recall anymore) has finally put an interest into figuring out improvements over the apparatus. As Wynsston states, flicking does occur, and while a little bit of tip play is the norm, it can reach exaggerated and silly proportions at times. Cheers, Matthew
Don't worry, you're not picking on me, I'll admit my ignorance of most of the the history of these weapons. My interest and experience is practical and from a modern fencing competitive standpoint. All my comments refer to foil, epee and sabre as they are used in modern (olympic) fencing. I agree that no modern fencing sword (foil epee or sabre) is an actual duelling weapon. However, epee is regarded by most fencers (myself included) to be the closest thing to a real duelling weapon as there are fewer rules governing it's use and the whole body is the target, as it would be in reality. It is also the only weapon of the three to allow simultaneous hits. However, you can't grab the blade or hit your opponent with anything other than the tip of the epee. If I was to train for a real duel with a modern fencing weapon I would probably choose an epee. Flicking as an action in itself is regarded as valid by most younger foilists (under 45 - we have long lives!). However, the so called marching attack with arm bent, foil pointing at ceiling ending in a flick is the technique that drives people crazy. Foilists can counter this attack without the new equipment by point in-line derobements. They can also use aggressive distance changing and counter attacks to make the flick miss or land flat. Flicking as defined in modern foil is regarded as something that came from the successful German squad of the 1980's. It's not used exclusively at a high level now but it's still very common. The international governing body for modern fencing is the FIE (Federation Internationale d' Escrime or International Fencing Federation in English). You really don't want to be anywhere near an epee that's snapped halfway down the blade, it can be lethal. Modern international and national standard fencing clothing is kevlar and rated in newtons to the force it can withstand. I've never been injured by a broken (or whole) weapon but I've had my mask hit by broken foils (which wakes you up!) and substandard clothing penetrated by broken blades - lucky me. W
"...epee is regarded by most fencers (myself included) to be the closest thing to a real duelling weapon..." Yup. See, I *knew* you weren't my target Audience... "...I was to train for a real duel with a modern fencing weapon I would probably choose an epee..." You nailed it on the head. The Epee is the safe way to have a Smallsword bout. Smallswords are wicked little buggers, usually a trifoil or quatrofoil shape, whose sole purpose was to puncture (or in some cases a small swiping cut), but it was all about the tip (even the cuts were really a tip scratch), the edges having long since vanished from Rapiers in the 17th century. To grab an opponents blade was cosidered gauche (whereas with Rapier Fighting most schools admit there are no rules), and so the form develops of tight circular wrist play, with the feint, beat, coupe and disengage comprising the majority of the fencers repetoire. For good cinematic illustrations of Smallsword fencing, and the forefather of Modern Sport Fencing, I'd recommend watching "Dangerous Liaisons" and "The Duellists". The scenes are brief (although "The Duellists" makes up for it in duel after duel after duel), but it becomes readily apparent where the manners and weapons stem from. Matthew
Is part of the objection to flicking the fact that the sportive "weapon" does something that its real-life analog couldn't do? In other words, do people disapprove of flicking because it doesn't reflect something possible in traditional fencing? The witik in FMA is done with a rattan stick which (at that length) behaves pretty much the way you'd expect a stick to work. It doesn't literally bend and curve to hit the target. Any curving is done with the wrist, so that any maneuver possible with a "sparring stick" is probably possible with a proper stick. Stuart
Mmm, good point. Most of the objections I've heard relate to the absurdity of being able to execute a successful attack with a point weapon whilst it's pointing at the ceiling. Therefore I think you're right to a large extent. I guess it's the natural result of sportsmen (and women!) finding ways to get a competitive advantage that is technically within the rules but not exactly in the spirit in which the sport was originally devised. Personally I don't mind the flick being present as one of many techniques to use because I regard foil more as a sport with strategy and tactics. In that sense it's more abstract than martial arts which are generally more related to their conflict based origins. Epee is probably the closest of the three weapons to it's martial origins. That's possibly why it's also in the modern pentathalon. I believe the pentathalon was introduced in the 1912 Olympics and was based on the skills taught to couriers in western military acadamies at the time (pistol shooting, fencing, riding, running & swimming). W
