Discipline and Respect in the Dojo...

Discussion in 'General Martial Arts Discussion' started by Melanie, Mar 19, 2002.

  1. Melanie

    Melanie Bend the rules somewhat.. Supporter

    Hello All,

    I recently found this post on another forum and wondered what your thoughts were on the subject. What would you do in the place of this instructor and students, would you feel compelled to say something to this student also?

    "Friday night I came across possibly the most irritating student I’ve ever met. He turned up the week before so this was his second lesson although it appears he has spent some time (a few months) studying ‘Kung Fu’ (he didn’t know what style). This was the first time I had been given the pleasure of teaching him so after a few basic techniques I decided to go through his first form with him.

    He immediately told me that somebody had shown him that last week and suggested that he move on to the next one. I tried to explain that he may have to repeat these forms quite a few times before he would be ready to move on, so he grudgingly started to follow my moves.

    I noticed that whenever I did a technique with a closed hand, he would do it with an open hand so I tried to correct him, only to be told that when he did Kung Fu they did everything with an open hand and that it was better that way. I explained to him that these were traditional forms and had to be learnt the way they were intended not changed at will after 2 lessons I also attempted to explain that the closed hand could be delivering a strike as well as blocking all of which seemed to go in one ear and out of the other as he continued to do everything with open hands.

    After a while I decided to abandon the form and show him some one steps, only for each demonstration to be greeted with a comment like “oh I wouldn’t do it like that“

    We have a policy in the club that we try to be tolerant and patient with beginners and try to bring them into the swing of things gently but this guy is likely to stretch my patience to the limits.

    Has anybody else out there had this type of student turn up ? and if so what’s the best way to deal with him ? or should I just send him on to his next club?"
     
  2. Andy Murray

    Andy Murray Sadly passed away. Rest In Peace.

    I think I'd suggest a style along the street, in need of an Assistant Coach. Take it on the chin, and admit that this is a much better style. Run by a chap called Chazz!

    The art of fighting without fighting!
     
  3. waya

    waya Valued Member

    I would work with him until he either learned correctly, or became unworkable. Chances are when he finds he will not advance until doing it right he will either do it or leave on his own.

    Rob
     
  4. Ozebob

    Ozebob Valued Member

    Hi Melanie,

    Its hard to know what one would in that situation as is depends on the compatibility of the student to the dojo.

    In the example you give, I would have suggested they guy go elsewhere and changed the lesson to joint-locks :)

    Regards,
    Bob
     
  5. Saz

    Saz Nerd Admin

    Send him to my dojo and let him say that to any of our instructors... Beginner or no beginner, he'd have spent the rest of the lesson in the corner doing push ups.

    Often beginners come along who think they know more than the instructors... we only have one in our dojo at the moment, but its enough. He's got this, 'I'm better than you attitude'. I really dislike beginners like that. The rest of the white belts are great kids.

    If i was his sensei I would have told him if he thought Kung Fu was so great then sod off back to it.

    Osu :)

    Sarah
     
  6. waya

    waya Valued Member

    I wouldn't just dislike a beginner like that....... That attitude is bad no matter where it comes from. It may also be something he got from his previous instructor and if so, that can be worked out of him. I think everyone deserves at least some effort in teaching them.

    Rob
     
  7. Chazz

    Chazz Keepin it kickin TKD style

    We had a guy like that come to ours but wassnt as bad as that. He liked a lot of open hand techniques and he liked to try them in forms as well as sparring. I kept trying to tell him, this is TKD we work with a solid fist. I kept getting the same answers back from him. It feels better open, i like it better open, you can do more with it open. This went on class after class. Me fixing his forms and stopping sparring matches time and again. Finally i went to prove a point. I told him that i was going to let him spar open handed and not say any thing about it. Twenty seconds or so into the fight he tried to block an ax kick open handed, and jammed two of his fingers. I stopped the match and asked if he was ok and wanted to stop. He said he wanted to keep goin. Again just a few minutes into the fight he jammed them up again. I stopped the match and took him aside and looked at his fingers. He kept wanting the finish the fight so..... I taped his hands up to where he had to fight with a closed fist and he ended up just about winning the match. Later i took him aside and told him that if his fist would have stayed closed his fingers wouldnt be so sore. Then i showed him when if good to use open hand, suck as grabs and take downs.

    Sometimes with someone older you cant really tell them how to change something (hard headed people) you just have to make them see it your way and them make themselves want to change.

    Chazz
     
  8. Kosokun

    Kosokun Valued Member

    I'd simply have a sit down talk with the guy. I'd tell him about my dojo, style and training methodology. I'd also tell him that whatever he did before, I don't do that. I do what I do here, and not what he did there. If he had genuine questions about what it was we were doing, then he needed to be adult about when he chose to ask his questions. His questions are welcome, disrupting the class isn't and it isn't the behavior of a mature adult. He'd be expected to behave as a mature adult if he was to participate in my classes. Armed with this info, he could then make an informed choice as to whether to stay or go elsewhere, with the understanding that if he stayed a particular behavioral standard was to be maintained.

    Thus far, I've never had to show anyone the door.

    Rob
     
  9. Cooler

    Cooler Keepin The Peace Supporter

    Discipline and Respect play a big part in the martial arts as far as I am concerned. As an instructor you are teaching an individual to defend themselves and fight possibly with the use of deadly force, now if that person can not show any discipline or respect at the basic level then I would have to seriously ask if that person should be taught the martial arts.

    Cooler
     
  10. Chazz

    Chazz Keepin it kickin TKD style

    I believe that any student that is not in the class just so he can learn to "fight" but is in it to learn will not let himself/herself be kicked out. A true student will try to follow to class.
     
  11. pesilat

    pesilat Active Member

    I've seen a few incidents similar to the one you describe, Malanie.

    One was my instructor's son, Donnie. He had never really had much training (was raised by his mom after divorce) but thought he knew some things. In his second class (he was 15 or 16 at this point) Guru Ken (my instructor) told his son to do a drill (called Angle 1 Hubad Lubad) with me. Donnie said, "I already know that." Guru Ken said, "You don't know squat until I decide you know it. Do the drill." Then he winked at me and said, "Show him a little of what he doesn't know about Hubad." A few minutes later Donnie realized how little he knew about the drill.

    Another guy came to our school. He was 20. He'd gotten a black belt in something else at 14 and thought he knew it all ... and obviously what he had was better than what we had. I couldn't figure out why he was even in our school ... but I never found out. We were very patient with him but he wouldn't listen to anything we had to say. He wasn't blatantly disrespectful ... but after a couple of weeks we were all pretty fed up with him.

    Guru Ken pulled me aside and said, "Go spar this guy. See what he has and what he doesn't. Then show him a little bit of what you've got." We sparred for 3 minutes. In the first 2 minutes, he didn't show me anything. I hit him at will and didn't even work up a sweat mounting defenses against the few pitiful attacks he did throw. After those 2 minutes, he was doubled over and sucking wind (surprised me because he *looked* like he was in good shape). After he caught his wind, we started up again. Then he suddenly stepped things up. What I felt from him was, "OK. I've seen what he's got now I'm going to show him what I've got and teach him a thing or two." He stepped into high gear and moved in. Before he even fired a punch, I stepped in, trapped his hands against his chest, then slapped him in the side of the head with an open hand shot that caught his temple and buckled his knees. The only reason he didn't hit the floor was because he managed to catch hold of a heavy bag nearby. We never saw him again after that day ... and we were heartbroken, let me tell you :)

    Mike
     
  12. waya

    waya Valued Member

    Sometimes people just beg for education LOL
     
  13. pesilat

    pesilat Active Member

    LOL ... yup ... and who am I to neglect their educational needs :)

    Mike
     
  14. Freeform

    Freeform Fully operational War-Pig Supporter

    Most of my instructors/sensei wouldn't tolerate that sort of behavior, and I've been in Mike's position before. We had a guy come into one of our clubs with a previous Dan grade looking to turn us into his training 'bitches' so he was treated with complete contempt and just bounced about for a few weeks, he never came back, shame.

    You have to balance respect for other styles with respect for what your doing now. If what you've done before is so superior then you should go back to it.

    Thanx
     
  15. Chazz

    Chazz Keepin it kickin TKD style

    They need to know that if they are a student they are there to learn not to continue other style that they study in that class.
     
  16. Saz

    Saz Nerd Admin

    "training 'bitches"....... I like it ;) lol
     
  17. Thomas Vince

    Thomas Vince New Member

    Melanie,
    Before I can say anythign about this I have some questions.
    1. How old is he?
    2. What is his family situations? Married, single, Live at home, Mom and Dad in the house?
    3. What are his goals and why did he come to your studio?
    4. Is he now paying or is in a special introductory program?
    5. What was it that he liked about his old school and why did he leave.

    I think if you can answer some of these questions you might find the right answer all by yourself. Live long and prosper.
    Yours in the Spirit of Kenpo,
    Thomas
     
  18. Melanie

    Melanie Bend the rules somewhat.. Supporter

    Hiya Thomas,

    I'm sorry, I cannot answer these questions :( I found this post on another forum and saw that it had a very varied response and wondered what the crowd on this forum would say. Very good points though to bring up. I wonder what differences any of the above would make to the type of student the instructors would experience?

    "If my grandmother had wheels she'd be a wagon" - Scotty, Star Trek III.

    Melanie
     
  19. Freeform

    Freeform Fully operational War-Pig Supporter

    How do you restore discipline? Say your clubs become very relaxed, how do you as an instructor regain control without looking like a ***t! Has anyone else had this problem.

    Also disciplining kids, whats the best method? I've got my own ideas here but I'm after yours!

    Thanx
     
  20. fluffydoc

    fluffydoc Carry On MAPper

     

Share This Page