For you who are interested www.genbukan.org has been redone and has a wealth of information, including some videos of techniques from Genbukan Ninpou Bugei, Kokusai Jujutsu Renmei, and Ko Ryu KaraTe.
Bujinkan vs Genbukan I was going to start a new thread this morning about comparing Bujinkan to Genbukan, but Xplasma's post prompted me to not only check out the Genbukan home but also to ask my question herein. I ask the follwong question respectfully and with the goal of understanding. I train in the Bujinkan and do not know enough about Genbukan to have an informed opinion. What is the difference between Bujinkan and Genbukan? I know some details, but not many. I know they both originated from Takematsu Sensei, who had, amongst others, two students, Hatsumi and Sato. As in understand it, Sato left and Hatsumi stayed. Is this correct? What was the relationship in Buyu terms between Hatsumi and Sato? Why the split? A couple of other points that I have picked up, mostly from Xplasma's posts. Genbukan does practice kumite. As far as I know, bujinkan does not. The training ethos pertaining to weapons is different. In the Bukinkan, weapons are an extension of the body. In genbukan, weapons training is distinct from taijutsu. Am I right in this generalization? That's pretty much all I think I know...
Fisrt I like to state that the school in which I study has no Kan affiliation, but we were a Genbukan school in the early 90s and we continue to train like that. Second, I know that Hatsumi and the other students of Takamatsu (there were a few more other then Hatsumi and Sato Kinbei) didn't get along. I don't know why. But some did have come harsh things to say about Hatsumi, whether they were valid or not. Lastly, /in my school/ the weapon train is not an extension of the taijutsu, it is the Taijutsu. Even though we have seperate ranks for each weapon using the menkyo system, the use a weapon is the same as the unarmed. But instead of viewing is as a extension of taijutsu we veiw the Taijutsu as a respresentation of fighting with a weapon, your weapon in that case is your body. However, one thing you must realize, with so many ryu-ha going around, when you do unarmed from Gyokko ryu then a weapon from another ryu like Kukishin Ryu, they won't and shouldn't look like each other.
I have not heard that Sato Kinbei Sensei and Hatsumi Sensei did not get along, but I have heard that Ueno Takashi Sensei did have a problem. At one time Hatsumi Sensei was a student of Ueno Sensei. From what I understand Hatsumi Sensei went to Takamatsu Sensei behind Ueno Sensei's back and started training with Takamatsu Sensei, while he was still a student of Ueno Sensei's. I'm not sure what kind of problem that caused between Takamatsu Sensei and Ueno Sensei, but there seemed to have been a strain between Hatsumi Sensei and Ueno Sensei. A student of Kaminaga Shigemi, Kai Kuniyuki, said in an interview that Ueno Sensei expelled (the Japanese term is "hamon") Hatsumi Sensei. Whether this is true or not, I don't know. As far as Sato Kinbei Sensei leaving Takamatsu Sensei, I'm not sure if this is totally correct. Sato Sensei was training to at least 1963 with Takamatsu Sensei. That was the year Sato Sensei recieved scrolls for Gikan-ryu. That would be 6 years after Hatsumi Sensei started his training with Takamatsu Sensei, which was in 1957. Also, if I recall correctly, about that time Sato Sensei asked Takamatsu Sensei about Chinese arts and was encouraged to go to China. This is about the time when Sato Kinbei started his research on CMA with Wang Shu Jin, Li Zi Ming, along with others. Not to mention, Kimura Masaji Sensei lived down the street from Takamatsu Sensei and continued his training with him until Takamatsu Sensei's passing. Then there was Fukumoto Yoshio Sensei. He trained in the same time period as Hatsumi Sensei with Takamatsu Sensei.
Before someone says that I'm spreading rumors, here is a portion of the interview. BTW, this website is in spanish and bablefish was used to translate it into english http://www.galeon.com/jlgarcia/hemeroteca/febrero03.htm
The nasty things I was referring to was what Ueno Sensei said in his obituary. However, I can't find a copy of it so I won't post it here.
I never saw I copy, it was something someone told me once. But I won't repeat it without seeing a copy.
Looking at this page, I wonder if Mr Tanemura holds the record for the most Sokeships/MKs, I count 23 (if we include the Hakkesho)! http://www.genbukan.org/cgi-bin/site.pl?ryu_soke On a more serious note can anyone explain the relationship between Hontai Yoshin Takagi Ryu Jujutsu and other similarly named ryu such as Hontai Yoshin Ryu etc., which of these are related, when did they diverge, who owns what and/or what's in dispute etc.?
Well Tanemura Sensei does hold a bunch of Sokeships. However recently instead of listing his Menkyo Kaiden, instead his listing that he has the Soke of his style. For example Instead of Koto Ryu-Menkyo Kaiden he is listing is as Koto Ryu Tanemura-Ha -Soke. That is not an uncommon thing to do, He is saying that his style and idea of Koto Ryu is different then other people. As for Yoshin Ryu, that is a very common name doesn't mean they are related.
23 complete masterships just seems rather a lot, even for a full time martial artist! Anyway, on the other issue there are dojos around, and crucially not too far located from me, affiliated to the Hontai Yoshin Ryu of Inoue (soke) and the founding and early history of this school appears identical with that given on the Bujinkan and Genbukan sites I've read for Yoshin Takagi Ryu. Since my initial interest in checking out the x-kan schools was the fact they incorporated some genuine ju jutsu (unlike most schools in the UK which advertise themselves as ju jutsu but have no affiliation or historical connection to any Japanese art whatsoever), and a traditional ju jutsu is something I've concieved a desire to learn, I thought the x-kan are as close as I'll get to matching my interest without relocating to Japan. Naturally, I'm very interested to learn of a school (Hontai Yoshin Ryu) which provides a possible alternative (I'm not so keen on the x-kan approach of mixing up a bunch of ryu-ha into a new budo and also find some areas of their practice, such as I've read about, a little dubious.) Anyway, I'm going to check them out.
So perhaps for some people it is OK for Tanemura to seek out whome he feels is a better teacher(s), but not for Hatsumi to do so? If any of its true at all that is..........
WotEvaYuKanDo, the Bujinkan is not . Soke Hatsumi (Maybe Tanemura as well but I do not know much about Genbukan) has awarded rankings in individual ryu-ha. The Bujinkan does not take elements of each ryu and merge it into a hybrid art; the nine arts are distinct and complete. Thank you for listening to my ranting, Jibran P.S. LostInTheMist, what are you trying to say?
In the Genbukan, pre-black belt is known as the Kihon Gata. That is a mixutre of movments from many different Ryu-Ha. For example San Dan Gata from Gyokko Ryu is in there , but the Uke Kata is from Kukushiden Ryu. After that is complete, which is the rank of Shodan, the rank-levels included kata from the different Ryu-ha. I believe starting at 3rd/4th Dan, that a requirement for the next rank is having a Menkyo rank in any ryu-ha of your choice. So in the Genbukan there is a "mixed" Kihon, then the ryu-ha as sperated at Shodan, and student are encouraged to get licensed in different Rya-ha.
Same as Bujinkan That is like Bujinkan; I just wanted to show that the X-Kans haven't watered down the ryu-ha.
