shaolin-do kungfu answers

[FanziQuan]

Hi simp3204,

Please correct me if I'm wrong, but as I have mentioned the present Shaolin Lineage is currently only at #32 (Xing) ,#33 (Yong), and #34 (Yan); there maybe Shaolin Monks of previous generations still at the Shaolin Temple. Shaolin Monk Shi Xing Wei is currently teaching in Las Vegas. Shaolin Monk Shi Yan Ming and Shi Guo Lin (both 34th Generation Shaolin Monks) are teaching in New York. Judging by the timeline displayed in your website, your Grandmaster Ie Chang Ming should be of a more senior lineage than those teaching in the States now. How can you claim that your GRANDMASTER Ie Chang Ming is of the 38th Generation? I find your answer just doesn't make any sense. Are you just saying that because I posted the lineage chart and you saw a character that matches your Great Grandmasters name? Also, please bear in mind that almost all the monks trained at the Shaolin Temple all have names starting with SHI then their generation's character and another character. Your Great Grandmaster's name has neither. Care to explain?

As I have also mentioned, I DO NOT consider myself a pro at the history of Shaolin, but I do know of some Shaolin history. Anyone wanting to correct my statements? Please, if I am wrong, I will gladly retract my statements and state a public apology on here.

[TheSwordMaster]

It's a shame to see everyone here argueing over something that has been said and done. what are they going to do come on here and change everything they have ever taught because of what we say.

i think that they look legit granted the gi's and the do in their name but that is out of honor and respect from past generations sacrefice.

if anything we should be argueing over how comprehensive their teaching is and from the looks of it they have a lot of information to choose from.

[chris_fowler99]

Ie Chang Ming was never a monk at the Shaolin Temple. He was a student under Su Kong at the Fukien temple and continued studying under Su Kong after the temple was burned down. Ie Chang Ming is the one that brought it to Indonesia.

I can't say I know much about the generational names, but wouldn't Su Kong fit right in at #30 (Su)?

[simp3204]

chris your exactly correct. Su Kong Tai Djin would go with #30 he mastered all aspects of shaolin. You can read up on him if you want to, so dont bother asking me about it.

The first and, possibly the most amazing grandmaster, was born in Fukien in 1849. When he was born he was covered in hair from head to toe, and his appearance scared his parents. His parents were so frightened of their son that they abandoned him, and he was left at the orphanage with the local monks, where they named him Su Kong Tai Djinn. Su had exceptional concentration and ability, it was so exceptional that he was trained by a master from each branch of the Shaolin training, which is very unusual because most men are taught just one branch of the training. He completed every branch of the training, and soon was appointed Grandmaster of the Fukien. Legend has it that Su Kong Tai Djinn had a conference joining 12 of the masters of Shaolin Kung Fu to one temple, when he walked into the room the other masters bowed, where Su promptly flung a knife into the air, killing an assassin. It was said that he heard 13 people breathing, and not 12. Su Kong lived a very long life and died in the year 1928. Throughout his life Su trained many others in the martial arts of Kung Fu. One of his greatest pupils was Ie Chang, who later became the second Grandmaster.

[FanziQuan]

Okay, let me try to get this straight. You're telling me that Su Kong Tai Djin is a 30th generation Shaolin Disciple? Because his name Su Kong Tai Djin is on the generation list as #30. Well, as I have stated, all Shaolin Monks included the word "SHI", THEN THEIR GENERATION'S CHARACTER, and another CHARACTER. Never would they begin their name with the generation's character. Simp3204 originally told me that Grandmaster Ie Chang Ming was #38; a lineage that currently does not exist! Why do you vary your stories?Please look at your previous post before you try to answer.

Fortunately, the editor of KungFu/Wushu Magazine is a Shaolin Disciple and student of Shaolin monk Shi De (31st generation) Cheng. Judging by age, if Su Kong Tai Djin lived until the year 1928, he should be of a more senior generation (perhaps in the 20-something generation). Master Shi De Cheng is currently only about (and at most) at the age of mid 50's to early 60's (perhaps even younger). Maybe I should confirm with his student Shi Xing (32nd generation) Long to see if his master remembers your Grandmaster Su Kong Tai Djin. Surely, if Su Kong Tai Djin is 30th generation then Master Shi De Cheng should remember him, right? Master Shi De Cheng is still currently teaching at the Shaolin Temple.

Well, it's obvious that you're just basing your lineage according to the name list I posted and know nothing of your true Shaolin Lineage. If I did not post anything, you probably wouldn't even know that such a thing existed. Simp3204, your stories all vary and you tell me that Grandmaster Ie Chang Ming is 38th generation, then I tell you that 38th generation does not exist, then someone bails you out and says Grandmaster Su Kong Tai Djin is 30th generation, then you agree that that's right, now I point out Master Shi De Cheng is 31st generation monk and let's see how you counter this.

I came in with the mentality hoping to clear your style of any critism with my help of finding your Shaolin lineage, but you've just proved that there's a lot about your knowledge and style to be skeptical about.

Good luck in training in your art.

[chris_fowler99]

I believe the answer that you're looking for, and the one you won't get from most (at least the most vocal) Shaolin Do students, is that we don't know.

Much of our information is based on stories, myths and legends, such as the legend presented by Simp3204 above. I've never actually read anything that officially said Su Kong was a monk or an abbot. I have read several places that mentioned he was the GrandMaster of Fukien Temple before the temple was destroyed. I'm not sure what that actually means and how that may or may not relate to being a monk or an abbot.

[simp3204]

Hum i know nothing of how the shaolin-lineage goes, but i still dont care if u dont believe me.

[KenpoDavid]

It possible that this school did desend from Shaolin teachers, but the details have been lost over time. That presents an opportunity for research into history, not for writing myths. Of ocurse, each is free to choose his own response.

[FanziQuan]

Well, like I have stated, I wanted to bring this to the Shaolin-Do practitioners hoping they know their Shaolin lineage so they can clear any misconceptions the public may have of their art. However, KenpoDavid, as you can tell by the posts made by Simp3204, there's quite a variation of stories. Are they all not sure about their lineage? I study Choy Lee Fat and I know our lineage on how it relates to Shaolin. I'm not saying that they should know the FULL history of their art, but at least do not try to assume that their previous Grandmasters are this generation (and I noted that the lineage does not exist currently) and that generation. That creates such a poor representation to their knowledge and art. I would have accepted a simple statement of "I'm sorry, I don't know the full history of Shaolin-Do" or something of that nature, as i do understand that not everyone would know their full history. But to attempt to reap benefits off my posts, really tells me a lot about their assumptions of their art. Never, did I post that their art was not valid or anything like that. If anything, it's of Shaolin and all Chinese martial arts evolved from Shaolin. But, please do not use information posted and try to take credit for it when you don't even know. That's my point!

[chris_fowler99]

Actually, there isn't much variation in the stories.

What you run into are people that are overly zealous to prove that Shaolin Do is everything they want it to be, so they reach and jump to conclusions when the evidence isn't there.

The general story stays pretty much true. Some of it is known fact. Most of the recent stuff. Some of it is believed to be fact, because evidence suggests it to be so. But even then, most of the evidence is second hand and via word of mouth, not the internet.

Much of it is based on stories that probably have a bit more myth to them than fact.

Personally, I believe the lineage is true. The lineage being the actual people involved. But the stories about these people are just stories to me. I do not know if Su Kong was ever a Grandmaster of the Fukien Temple. There are stories that say so, but there is no documentation. I do believe that he was a student there. I do believe that he amassed an amazing amount of knowledge and that he passed it on to Ie Chang Ming. I know for a fact that Grandmaster The is from Indonesia and learned from Ie Chang Ming. I believe (based on second hand word) that GrandMaster The has contemporaries in Indonesia who also trained under Grandmaster The.

But most of all, I believe in my sifu and my sifu's sifu and their methods. What they've been taught. How they use it. How they teach it. What they believe.

And that's good enough for me.

[FanziQuan]

Dear Chris_Fowler99,

I like your explanation and I respect your attitude towards your Sifu and Grandmasters and anyone of a senior rank in the art of Shaolin-Do.

Your explanation is clearly states your philosophy and thoughts, and I totally have respect for a person like you. However, please bear in mind that explanations made by Simp3204 were not acceptable to me and I did not target my comments directly at you, but at him. You have to understand that Simp3204 just seemed to think he knew something and then change his mind then thought he knew something and changed his mind again.

Good for you. Private message me sometime and we can discuss Chinese Martial Arts.

how long have you been doing Shaolin-Do for? What rank? just to be fair, I've been doing Choy Lee Fat for 15 years (and counting) and Contemporary Wushu for about 7 years (and counting).

[chris_fowler99]

I've been at it almost 2 1/2 years and just received my blackbelt.

So, I'm a beginner.

[FanziQuan]

Good to hear that Chris! Train hard and keep it up.

[KenpoDavid]

Originally Posted by chris_fowler99

Actually, there isn't much variation in the stories.

What you run into are people that are overly zealous to prove that Shaolin Do is everything they want it to be, so they reach and jump to conclusions when the evidence isn't there.

The general story stays pretty much true. Some of it is known fact. Most of the recent stuff. Some of it is believed to be fact, because evidence suggests it to be so. But even then, most of the evidence is second hand and via word of mouth, not the internet.

Much of it is based on stories that probably have a bit more myth to them than fact.

Personally, I believe the lineage is true. The lineage being the actual people involved. But the stories about these people are just stories to me. I do not know if Su Kong was ever a Grandmaster of the Fukien Temple. There are stories that say so, but there is no documentation. I do believe that he was a student there. I do believe that he amassed an amazing amount of knowledge and that he passed it on to Ie Chang Ming. I know for a fact that Grandmaster The is from Indonesia and learned from Ie Chang Ming. I believe (based on second hand word) that GrandMaster The has contemporaries in Indonesia who also trained under Grandmaster The.

But most of all, I believe in my sifu and my sifu's sifu and their methods. What they've been taught. How they use it. How they teach it. What they believe.

And that's good enough for me.

cool

[TheSwordMaster]

i have been in shaolin-do for 3 months now and i believe in the things that they have told us. i do realize where you all are coming from and thats cool with me. sometimes i do doubt what the teachers say.

i don't do shaolin for the history i do i because it was the only kung fu place in town.

The stuff that they teach us is very cool and thourough ( i cant spell) i think the system works and i don't worry about the lineage to much. I do like your alls debate and the truth would be nice.

Thanks Swordmaster