Well, from one of the other threads, so seems that many people have question about Falling, Rolling, Escaping, etc. Personally, there ins't an excuse for not knowing all the basic Ukemi by 7th Kyu. So let catch everyone up to speed. Zenpo Ukemi (Front Fall) Koho Ukemi (Back Fall) Yoko Ukemi (Side Fall) Zenpo Kaiten Ukemi (Front Roll into Back/Side Fall) Sokuho Kaiten Ukemi (Side Roll into Side Fall) Zenpo Kaiten (Front Roll) Koho Kaiten (Back Roll) Sokuho Kaiten (Side Roll) Tachi Nagare (Backward Flowing Drop) Yoko Nagare (Sideways Flowing Drop) Jun Nagare (Rear Shoulder Escape) Gyaku Nagare (Reverse (Front) Shoulder Escape) Ohten (Cartwheel) *Zenpo/ Koho Tenkai (Front and Back Handspring) aren't require in most dojos but a standard Ukemi just the same. So this is an open forum to discuss this subject, ask questions, and fine tune this very important aspect of training. I will start.... I am still trying to get my Zenpo Tenkai down. I can do a HandStand. and I can do a Handstand into Koho Ukemi. I been training to get control by doing a Handstand into Zenpo Kaiten. Anyone have any idea on training this?
xplasma: "..., there ins't an excuse for not knowing all the basic Ukemi by 7th Kyu." I agree. Ukemi is such an important part of the art. The sooner one becomes proficient in all manner of falls and rolls, the sooner one can practice advanced forms safely. "I am still trying to get my Zenpo Tenkai down. I can do a HandStand. and I can do a Handstand into Koho Ukemi. I been training to get control by doing a Handstand into Zenpo Kaiten. Anyone have any idea on training this?" Handsprings are also called kiten, and doing handstands is one way to get used to the momentary inverted position. One needs a little bit of arm strength to do the spring portion, but I've found that the hands form more of a balance point, and it is the back and legs that propel one over. Anyway, to help with the arm strength part, try doing handstands near a wall, so you can rest your feet against the wall for balance, and then do some vertical pushups. You can also have a training partner lightly hold your feet to keep you from falling over. After getting better at this exercise, rely less on the wall or your partner to support your feet and activate the smaller muscles in your arms to not only push yourself up, but also to stabilize and balance. To actually do the handspring, start with some mats and a partner spotter for safety. Beyond the knowledge of how the movement works, and the physical motion which is actually quite simple, the major difficulty is having the courage to attept it. Keep it safe at first with mats and spotters so you feel more comfortable, and make sure that everything stays in alignment as you go over, so there is no twisting, and try to land flat on both feet. If you can't get all the way over, you may fall backwards onto you butt, but if you know backwards falls/rolls, that will be no problem - just add a little more forward momentum next time. xplasma, I can visualize what you mean by going from a handstand into a forward roll (similar to the landing from a diving roll, right?), but I can't figure out how you can go from a handstand to a back roll. Backward handsprings are actually physically easier to do than front handsprings, because there are more muscles in the legs, back, and abs that go into the movement, and the hands are even more of a momentary balance point than in zenpou kiten, and provide little if no springing action. But moreso than with front, back handsprings require a lot of courage. Even if you know how to do them, and have done them fine before, there is still a little inkling of fear before throwing yourself backwards, unable to see where to land.
By the way, there is already another thread on ukemigata taihenjutsu / kaiten waza: http://www.martialartsplanet.com/forums/showthread.php?t=239 That one seems to have fallen apart, so it's probably good to have a fresh one. To continue on: zempou kaiten - forward roll Technically, I believe 'forward roll' refers to going directly forward over the head and down the spine, coming up on both feet. This is probably only a beginner's teaching tool to learn the basic motion of going over into a roll. I would like to describe instead, 'naname zenpou kaiten' - diagonal forward roll. This is a safer and more useful form of rolling. I will assume rolling over the left shoulder for the purpose of discussion. After squating to get low to the ground, place the right hand on the ground, fingers pointing forward (as opposed to the basic front roll where both palms touch the ground), and point the elbow of the right arm in the direction you want to travel. Breathe out as you pitch yourself forward, and tuck the chin to the chest. As you go over, rotate the head in the direction of the roll (to the right in this case) so you are looking up at the ceiling/sky. This will cause your spine to twist and align the shoulders properly so that you don't impact your shoulder into the ground which can happen if you look at the ground while rolling. Instead, you want to bypass the shoulder and touch first with the muscles of the back. Travel diagonally across the back to the opposite (right) hip - this way, the force is spread over the largest possible area, and the spine only touches the ground at a single point. As you go over, keep the legs tucked in with heels close to the buttocks, and knees close to the chest. Roll into a kneeling position over the right shin and the left foot flat on the ground. The hands should stay in pretty much the same guarding position in front of the body. Once the roll is completed and you are in a balanced position, either stand directly up, or stand while turning around to see what's behind you. In the case of rolling away from attacks, keep your vision on your opponent the whole way through. After you practice that way a few times, try a forward roll from a throw - e.g. have a partner perform ura gyaku to take you down forward, try to avoid landing flat on your front by anticipating the fall and rolling over the free arm. In this case, the hand that would have been placed on the ground for stability is being held, so proper body alignment is important to control the roll. I hope these tips have been useful. If anyone else has pointers on forward rolls, or training ideas to practice them, please share. Otherwise, we can move on to one of the other ukemi forms.
I think you mis-read. I said Handstand into a back fall (Koho Ukemi). Thanks for the response, I will try that vertical pushup idea. Now if some our upper kyus that still can't do back and side rolls will speak up.....
Yes, handstand into back fall, but still I don't get it. I actually tried it and came up with a funky gymnastic maneuver (*see below). Unless you mean that you're actually falling forward (going from shoulders to hips) into a backfall position. Or, you could mean that you start in a handstand, go over onto your feet, but not completely spring up to standing and necessarily have to fall backwards landing on hips and rolling to shoulders? *The funky maneuver: As a scientist by nature, my curiosity led to experimentation. I had no idea how to go from a handstand to a back roll, so I ended up doing something like this (what use it could possibly have eludes me): Starting from a handstand, I bring my legs back down, but before my feet can touch the ground, I fold my legs into fudozagamae and pass them between my arms until my butt touches, then I do a backward roll. Well, let's just stick to the basics for now. If no one else contributes their tips for forward or backward rolls, I'll post again with back roll descriptions.
1. Do a Hand Stand 2. Come over like you going to a Front Hand Spring. but instead of landing on your feet you land on your back.
I understood it, but that shouldn't matter. Anyway, I still haven't been about to a hand pring because I need momentum and I'm scared I'll hurt myself because I have no spotter or enough room to do one. Still, to perpared yourself for a hand spring. Learn how to do a cartwhell and a round off. Handstand and fall is good too. Plus vertical push-ups will help but holding a handstand is good enough, because you don't need that much of a push because the momentum does the majority of it. Also try holding a bridge position, wrestlers and gymnists do this. And practice kip-ups. Ok, now to do it. Start off as if you were going to do a dive roll but don't roll. This is better than going into a handstand because it gives your body momentum and will be easier to exicute. As your feet get to be in the air this becomes the hardest part. You need to bend your knees and back and spring with your shoulders and bisceps. This will give you more power than your bisceps and forearms would. After you are reach down with your feet to the ground and try to use your abs to pull the upper part of you up. You will land on your butt and back a lot in this exercise. Hm, I'm pretty sure I can do all that. I'm not too good on the flow drop though and some times hit the ground too hard on the shoulder escape. Still, everything else I think I'm good on. Heck, I can even do a one handed cartwheel and starting to practice the ariel (no handed) cartwheel. Think I could do the front handspring if I had the courage. And a question, what problem do people have with the side roll? I thought that'd be easier to do than a front roll. I mean, don't you just crouch down, land on your hip, roll across your back, and get back up?
Kalifallen: "..., I still haven't been about to a handspring because I need momentum and I'm scared I'll hurt myself because I have no spotter or enough room to do one." The harder ukemi like handsprings, one-handed cartwheels, sideways hand springs (like a cartwheel / roundoff motion), etc. have limited usefulness, so no need to rush on mastering them - better to spend most ukemi training on basic falls and rolls. "Still, to perpared yourself for a hand spring. Learn how to do a cartwhell and a round off. ... Also try holding a bridge position, wrestlers and gymnists do this. And practice kip-ups." All great tips! "...You need to bend your knees and back and spring with your shoulders and bisceps. " I think you mean triceps here. If you flex your biceps, you'll pull your head into the ground. "You will land on your butt and back a lot in this exercise." Yep, but that makes for good back fall & back roll practice. "... I'm not too good on the flow drop though and some times hit the ground too hard on the shoulder escape. " Which flowing drop are you refering to? Tachi nagare? Yoko nagare? What kind of escape is causing you to hit too hard? "And a question, what problem do people have with the side roll? I thought that'd be easier to do than a front roll. I mean, don't you just crouch down, land on your hip, roll across your back, and get back up?" There are 3 primary kinds of side roll. Something where you crouch and go from the hip across the back is more of a back roll. To roll more sideways, use one of the following 3 methods: 1. like a diagonal front roll, but take the diagonal all the way to the side and do a forward roll motion shoulder to hip, but keep focus to the front. 2. sideways roll across both shoulders - need to round out the body by bending the knees, curling the spine and rounding out both arms (like hugging a big barrel). 3. sideways flow: like the front roll has a sideways variation, the backroll can be made into a sideways flow. lower yourself down to the ground by sliding one leg down across the front of your other one, until you contact on the outside of your leg and hip. keep focus forward and kick the leg sideways over your head as your roll over the side of your back.
Oh, this really makes you think..... Mostly the yoko nagare but I also have a little trouble with the tachi nagare. Mostly because I have some trouble trying to figure out how to balance myself for the fall. So instead of hitting the floor flat I usually hit hip first. Gyaku nagare is the shoulder escape I get hurt on. I seem to hit my shoulder into the ground more than I should. Like you're suppose to hit the side of your shoulder on the ground but sometimes I hit the top. Which hurts a lot more. Hm, didn't think there were that many side rolls or maybe I just classified them in one area. Anyway, I usually preform the 3rd one. I might have done the others but haven't acknowledged until you spoke of them. Surprised me. Plus, from reading the first one it sounds like a regular front roll. I don't know I'm a little confused. On the first one you mean go off your right shoulder and land on your right hip? And on the second, it's like rolling across your shoulder blade area from right shoulder to left, right? If what I understand is correct then yeah. If not then what? Can you word it in a step by step sort of mannor?
Some of these are hard to describe in writing... The third variation of side roll I described is yoko nagare. The second is pretty much the standard side roll, and yes it's a direct roll across the shoulder blade area - little or no contact with the lower back or hips. The first one is essentially a forward roll, but instead of turning to the side and doing a front roll in that direction, you roll to the side much like a front roll, but keep facing forward. Tachi nagare just takes practice - a lot of these ukemi are quite difficult to just practice on your own. Many times it is easier to take ukemi from a throw or takedown, or use them for a throw, like using yoko nagare to do a dragon drop throw. I don't have enough time to do any more descriptions right now, but I'll come back with some tips on backward rolls.
quick tip on back rolls Here's an exercise I like to show people who have trouble getting over with backward rolls (kohou kaiten): Lie down flat on your back. If, for example, you want to roll back over the left shoulder, keep your right leg extended out straight, but bend your left leg so your left foot is flat on the ground close to your butt. Extend your left arm out to the side with your palm flat on the ground. Put the back of your right hand over your left ear. Tuck your chin to your chest, and exhale. Kick your right leg over your left shoulder with the idea of trying to bring both of your knees over your extended left arm to touch the ground behind your shoulder. The momentum should carry you over to a kneeling position. If you need a little more force to get upright, you may push off the ground a little with your right hand. Allow your left arm to rotate naturally and then bring your left hand up infront of your chest and extend your right hand out (a la ichimonji za gamae). Your left knee will be on the ground and your right knee up with right foot flat on the ground. Don't leave your left foot's instep flat on the ground, but try to get onto the ball of the foot immediately after rolling over. This way, you can stand up directly from the kneel. Practice this many times on both sides of the body, and then try it from standing by doing a kohou nagare ukemi first and using the momentum of the drop to help take you over.
questions and clarifications As knowledgable as I think I am, and as skilled as I am at ukemi, there are still a few ukemi terms that I am not familiar with. I'm sure I've done all of the following, but not knew what they were called. Can anyone give a good definition/description of these ukemi forms? What's the difference between kohou ukemi, kohou nagare, and tachi nagare? What is tare nagare? Best definition I've seen is "hanging flow." Gyaku nagare? Jun nagare?
Kohou Ukemi or Back Break Fall is when you land on your back slapping the ground to absorb the impact. you legs should raise a bit protecting your groin and be able to kick someone in front of you. Kohou Nagare or Back Flow, never heard of that. If you are referred to Ushiro Nagare or Backward Flow from the Togakure Ryu, that is the same as Tachi Nagare, different ryu different name. Tachi nagare or Standing Drop (I think is the Translation). Is when you kick one leg out lower yourself on the hind leg to the ground. The different here to Kohou Ukemi is that in Tachi Nagare your Thigh and Butt is taking the impact (the little impact there is). The back roll away (in some instance like the defense to Ura Kote Gyaku you wouldn't back roll) Jun Nagare: Stand in Ichimonji No Kamae. Leaning away as far as you can keeping eyes in front of you, then zenpo kaiten over rear shoulder. you should come up in Ichimonji No Kamae pointing in the same direction as your started. Gyaku Nagare: Same as Jun Nagare except you roll over your front shoulder. You get more distance doing this. never heard of tare nagare...
Ok, must be differences in training methods. The kohou ukemi you described doesn't exist in the bujinkan as far as I know. There are no ukemi that involve slapping the ground like in the breakfalls of judo or aikido. After some other research - in the context of bujinkan ukemi training - I have decided that kohou ukemi is taught as a prelude to kohou kaiten, and tachi nagare / ushiro nagare is the same, but the end result is to be flat on the back. I've only seen tachi nagare used as a throw: In a grappling situation, do a backward body drop between the opponent's legs, possibly (or usually, the way I do it) kicking up into their groin to throw them headfirst behind you. A similar use can be found in the technique, temakura. It's like the difference between zenpou kaiten and zenpou nagare. One is a forward roll back to standing, and the other is a forward fall and roll that ends flat on the back. Just as I thought, I have done jun nagare and gyaku nagare, but never learned what they were called. Actually I have learned gyaku nagare as such, but it was called gyaku zenpou kaiten. I have still yet to find anything definitive regarding tare nagare. I have seen somethings calling it a hip flow, so it might be an ukemi in response to a hip throw or similar situation. Maybe it refers to hanging on to the person throwing you. ??
The slapping break falls come from Takagi Yoshin Ryu Jutaijutsu. So they are there if you want them. Yoko nagare can be used to throw as well. I'll ask my sensei about Tare nagare tomorrow
flow to throw xplasma: "The slapping break falls come from Takagi Yoshin Ryu Jutaijutsu. So they are there if you want them." I can believe that. Seems like it would be necessary considering the kinds of throws and takedowns that art is known for. In the Bujinkan, we rarely train directly from one or another ryuha. Everything tends to pass through the overall Bujinkan ryuha collective filter. So while I'm sure we may practice Takagi-style ukemi from time to time, in general we have one Bujinkan-style of ukemi (being a mixture of all the ryu) that we practice most often. As such, we are specifically taught (at least in my dojo) not to slap the ground as a general rule. "Yoko nagare can be used to throw as well." Oh, definitely, and to quite a good effect. I think that use of yoko nagare can be found in the shindenfudoryu jutaijutsu kata called "ryuko" - which I think means "dragon drop." I think I'll go into more detail on that in my nagewaza thread: http://www.martialartsplanet.com/forums/showthread.php?t=20364
